The MindSpa Podcast
The MindSpa Podcast is your go-to space for meaningful conversations around mental health, healing, and personal growth. Hosted by Michelle Massunken RSW and Tina Wilston RP, co-founders of MindSpa Mental Health Centre, each episode explores key mental health topics through expert interviews and thoughtful roundtable discussions.
From managing stress and building stronger relationships to navigating invisible challenges, the MindSpa Podcast offers grounded, professional insights in a warm and accessible way. Tune in weekly for supportive, real-world conversations to help you feel seen, supported, and empowered on your wellness journey.
The MindSpa Podcast
Ep 11 The Fine Art of Not Being the Jerk
Have you ever found yourself questioning whether you're wrong for setting a boundary or speaking up when something bothers you? You're not alone. The line between asserting your needs and maintaining healthy relationships can be incredibly tricky to navigate.
In this thought-provoking episode, we tackle real-life relationship dilemmas that leave people wondering if they're the problem. We explore whether it's appropriate to contact your spouse's therapist when you know they're lying about sobriety, how to handle a roommate whose ADHD affects your living situation, and what to do when your partner's work stories are creating vicarious trauma in your life.
We dig deep into the fascinating psychology of boundaries, especially within families. One particularly illuminating discussion reveals how some family systems mistakenly equate lack of boundaries with closeness—when the opposite is often true. As we explain, "I feel safe with you when you respect my boundaries, and I might open them more when I feel that respect."
The episode offers practical wisdom for handling those uncomfortable moments when you need to speak up without damaging relationships. We examine the crucial difference between protecting loved ones from pain versus helping them develop resilience through supported challenges. Whether you're dealing with in-laws who drop by unannounced or a teenager who wants to meet their estranged parent, you'll find compassionate, nuanced guidance.
What's the real cost of suppressing your needs? When does helping cross the line? How can you tell if your boundaries are reasonable? Listen now for insights that will transform how you approach difficult conversations and relationship dynamics.
Welcome back to the Mind Spa podcast. Thank you so much for tuning in today. So we are going to be talking. This is our favorite one, right? We like talking about different scenarios because we I mean really, at the end of the day, the thing that we do every day is hear people's stories and they're trying to understand am I the problem, are they the problem and how do I sort this out? And so we're going to go through some scenarios. So our first one am I a jerk for telling my husband's therapist that he's lying in sessions? I overheard him say he's been clean from alcohol for four months. He drank. Last weekend. I emailed the therapist. Now my husband says I violated his trust and therapy space.
Speaker 2:Am I the?
Speaker 1:jerk, what are your thoughts? So much to dig into here.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think there's a couple of things at play. I feel like intention needs to be added to the conversation, like what was your intention when you decided to send off that email to his therapist? Was the intention? Um, from a lens and the perspective of like compassion and care and concern? Um, was it more punitive? Like? What were you intending out of this? I think that's an important part of the conversation.
Speaker 2:I think, there's kind of this fine line, right, Like you want to be able to recognize that it's taken a huge step for him possibly a huge step for him to be in therapy. Yeah, you want to make sure that you can nurture that relationship, support him as he works towards his wellness. Um, but then also, if there are things that you're seeing that he may not see, how do I allow that perspective to be shared in a way that still lets him feel as if his confidentiality, his space, is being respected? But you might also want to share this with your therapist. Yeah, Like, how do you find that balance between that too? And I think I mean the truth. I've had spouses email me before. I've had spouses email me and just say just thought you'd want to know this.
Speaker 1:Um, this is are you ever aware on whether or not the client knows that's the thing.
Speaker 2:So I don't know, because they never tell me in the email if, like they don't like CC their partner and their, so that I'm just like hey wait, is this a secret? Like, what are we doing here? But I always tell the person, I always tell the client, yes, we might, I always. And that's exactly that's like our obligation, like I always tell the client. By the way, your wife emailed me over the weekend. I don't know if you know, sometimes I'll be like, yeah, she told me Okay, or I've never had them.
Speaker 1:It's so much easier.
Speaker 2:I've never had them say like, oh, what did she say? And I didn't know this Like, oftentimes it's like, yeah, she told me, or yeah, she told me she was going to, and so in a lot of ways, I have found it helpful because it's opened up the conversations and sessions. It's allowed us to take this collateral information and share it and talk about it. Right, this is something that she said, let's talk about it, and I always tell folks to like. Like, sometimes our spouses can see things that we don't always see, and so we want to welcome that perspective, we want to welcome that feedback and really ask ourselves like why are they doing this?
Speaker 2:Are they being mean? Are they just trying to be controlling, or do they generally care for my wellness?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it could go either way, it could be for sure, for sure. So I think all those things need to be taken into consideration before, sort of like, determining whether you're a jerk or not creates a conversation that would have been harder to bring up or have with that young person Without that information.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but we absolutely always have to kind of let them know where we got the info. So it gets real dicey when anybody's ever tried to sort of say, hey, can you work on this? I found a vape in my son's bag, do you?
Speaker 2:think you could talk to him about vaping?
Speaker 1:You're like okay, so I'll let him know that you were in his bag, right? Vaping? You're like okay, so I'll let him know that you were in his bag. Oh no, no, don't tell them. Just say you think I'm just gonna bring up vaping out of nowhere, right?
Speaker 1:But I I think that when I hear this, when I hear this scenario, the first piece that stuck out to me was I overheard, why are you overhearing that? That should not, that should not be happening. So for me, the biggest issue is the overhearing piece. So definitely that brings to mind like reminding everybody if you're ever doing remote or telehealth therapy, make sure that you have those privacy pieces in place so people are not overhearing your therapy.
Speaker 1:Because the other piece is that he drank last weekend and I know that he told his therapist that he's not drinking and he says I violated his trust in therapy space. So I mean, why didn't that actually just spark a conversation between the two of you? Right, I noticed that you said this, but but this isn't true and I'm worried about that because if you're not being honest with your therapist about the drinking, I'm concerned about how that impacts. You know our relationship and what's going on here. That probably would have been a better conversation first, and then, if they're like I mean, depending on how that conversation goes, and saying, well, you know, I'm going to let your therapist know because, because we don't know that this isn't like I'm on the brink of divorce here.
Speaker 2:And if you do not actually get help with this.
Speaker 1:I'm out and I'm leaving, and so I can see the value a little bit more in trying to save the relationship, because this is a topic that can break a family up. And we know that when it comes to addiction and that type of stuff, people's realistic view on how bad it is or whether it's problematic or not, can be very skewed and it'd be hard to see. I think there's a lot of people out there that struggle with substances and have never told their therapist that they think they're drinking too much.
Speaker 2:Even addictions like porn addictions or shopping addictions, right Like, not even substances. Sometimes, when people say things I'm just like oh, I didn't know that. Right, wait when? How long? Yeah, I know, tell me more.
Speaker 1:It's sort of yeah, it is one of those. There's a lot of things that we see in therapy where people come with the presenting issue of, let's say, anxiety is probably number one, yeah, but then when we actually find, oh, this is trauma, yeah, you're here for trauma. I mean, yes, you're experiencing anxiety symptoms, but the work we need to do is trauma or and and another one is ADHD. Right, I, I'm stressed, I'm overwhelmed, and they're not. Sometimes it's taken me years to find out, or even them find out, because they didn't realize they had it. You know so, and I, and I think, substance abuse or just addiction in general is one of those ones.
Speaker 1:People don't necessarily reach out and say that's the presenting issue.
Speaker 2:It kind of always becomes or feels a secondary to what they see as primary in a lot of ways, but then recognizing like it's fueling each other.
Speaker 1:Yes, like the anxiety, exactly is fueling the addiction and the addiction is maintaining the anxiety and they're fueling and complementing each other in an unhelpful way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So we're. We're never going to deem anybody specifically in the wrong, so there's way too much like lack of context in any of these scenarios. So, spoiler alert, we're never going to be like they're clearly the you know jerk in this situation. There's there's so much more context, but hopefully people can understand that the main issue was you shouldn't have overheard it in the first place. So so if you would know or love anyone who's in therapy and is telehealth, you should also be doing everything you can to make sure you can't hear what they're saying. Give them that space. Give them that space. That's that's not helpful. And then, if that did happen, let's say you couldn't control it.
Speaker 2:It did happen. A conversation first before, before reaching out to the therapist directly. Okay, so the next one. Yeah, am I the jerk for telling my roommate with ADHD that her mess is affecting my mental health? She's always late with chores. She says I'm neurotypical, shaming her and not being inclusive, and I'm drowning in dishes and resentment. What do you think this is a good?
Speaker 1:one. I feel like this is a really, really good one, because we can actually generalize to all sort of areas where we should be giving compassion. Do you know what I mean? Because this can be just someone who's overwhelmed, this could be somebody who's depressed, this could be somebody who's anxious, it could be somebody who has ADHD, that they have people in their lives that can be impacted by what's going on with them. And where is the line of being compassionate towards that person's situation? And where is the line where you say, well, regardless though of this condition, like I can't live like this, you know, or it's not fair that so much ends up getting put on me because whatever's going on with you you can't take care of. And how do you navigate that?
Speaker 1:So, definitely, what comes to mind first and I think that this can be a good lens to use at the first outset is is this person doing anything right, like proactive, or to try to diminish the negative impact on me? So, are they trying a schedule? Are they trying reminders? Are they using tools let's say ADHD tools to try to improve the situation and this is as good as it gets? Or have they said well, because I have this condition, I'm not good at dishes, or you know what I mean and they sort of sit on. Oh, because of this, there's nothing I can do yeah, and that's a.
Speaker 2:That's a big thing, I think, with mental health, adhd, generally speaking. I think it's the idea of, like, how do I still show accountability, right, right, with regards of my diagnosis? That doesn't excuse me from being accountable.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so how do I still show accountability? By having systems in place, having a conversation with my roommates or my loved ones that, hey, just so you know my ADHD is affecting, or I'm changing medications or whatever it is, but having those conversations just so that that doesn't feel as if I'm negating my responsibilities or they're not important to me, they don't matter to me.
Speaker 2:But we can't use that as an excuse, right, and so how do I Exactly, it's a fine line between yeah, there is a diagnosis in place, but I also have dishes to do, right, and so how do I make sure that I'm still being responsible and not allowing the other person who I love and care about to feel burnt out because of the lack of systems that I might have in place or the lack of care that I'm giving to my own diagnosis, or how I navigate my own mental health, but balancing it?
Speaker 1:And what's funny is because we have again such little context. I would also want to draw in that context. We also know from a cleaning perspective and organization and keeping your environment clean, you can have people on the other end of the spectrum where they have zero tolerance for a dish on a counter dish in a sink, and if those are your expectations, how fair is it to actually put those expectations on someone else? Right, because people's tolerance for stuff on on surfaces For cleanliness we all have like.
Speaker 2:The range of what cleanliness looks like for each of us is subjective.
Speaker 1:I always love it Like when. When people say sort of like, I have a different definition of what clean is you have one definition.
Speaker 2:I have one definition.
Speaker 1:And how do we, how do we actually come to that compromise?
Speaker 2:How do we have a shared definition of, like this is what we define as cleanliness, like when you have dish on the sink, versus like a dish, a sink full of dishes, right, like? How do we find that balance? I think it's redefining those things, yeah, and having a shared definition of some of these things is going to be another big part of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I'm trying to remember. So, oh, telling my roommate that her mess is affecting my mental health, is that unfair? It's not unfair. No, I don't think so. It's necessary yeah.
Speaker 2:That's part of you being able to assert yourself right, like I understand where you're coming from, but I also want you to understand where I'm coming from. My needs matter, your needs matter. How do we balance the two? Yeah, so I don't think it's unfair. I think it's necessary for the health of the relationship and for your own mental health and that of the other person Because, again, similar to the first scenario, they may not see things the way that you're seeing things, and so let them share in your perspective, because they might be like oh, I didn't realize that was actually affecting you.
Speaker 2:It was not on my radar. I didn't notice it. It wasn't on my radar, you hadn't said anything, so I thought it was fine.
Speaker 1:So there's the how that comes to mind. How are you telling them it's affecting my mental health, right, because there's a super shamey way to do it. Exactly. There's super angry ways to do it. Helpful, not at all, yes, but we also know there's that like crap sandwich version of doing it. Like, I really like this about you being my roommate You're really sweet, you're really kind, you're really loving and I love all these things about you. Ideally, I mean, I guess it could also just be more practical, if you're not already friends, where it's just like these are your good points, right? This we're struggling with. Dishes is something we're struggling with. And then a constructive piece of like, what, like, what can I do? How can we change our system? What would be able to help you succeed more? Um, and stress me out less? You know and can and can we talk about that, and most people are going to be a lot more open to that than for the love of do your dish. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:But then you can get to the. For the love of do your dishes, if you continue to suppress With that resentment Exactly.
Speaker 1:That resentment.
Speaker 2:Once it builds and builds, and builds, you get to the. For the love of God, that's what happens. And so you're not the a-hole at all or the jerk or whatever it is, but you definitely want to make sure that you are emptying out those conversations as they come up for you, instead of letting them pile up and build.
Speaker 1:Right, because actually, when you say that, they said that the resentment's there and what we know about resentment, it is very often going to build when I do not voice it Exactly. So it's actually if you don't want resentment, you always have to speak up, you have to have the conversation, yeah, or you're just guaranteed it's going to, and at some point you can't keep it down, you can't keep it suppressed.
Speaker 1:It's going to come out ugly. We don't want that. No, okay. Next one yeah, okay. Am I the jerk for asking my partner to stop trauma dumping every night after work? He's a nurse, I love him, but every night is a detailed recap of pain and death and burnout. I asked him to consider therapy or journaling instead and he got offended oh, that's tough.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like I think I love that she gave the partner or they gave the partner the option of. There are so many other ways that you can process what you're seeing at work right.
Speaker 2:Journal, talk to somebody I love you, I want to be here for you and I want to support you. But I also look back to the same thing. I want to protect my own mental health, not that I want to not know, but I also want to make sure that I'm okay. And that's an important part, I think, of the relationship itself.
Speaker 2:And I mean, I'm just thinking like if I'm hearing that every time that I'm getting ready to go to sleep, like I'm not going to be able to sleep and tolerate that, and then at some point the lack of sleep is going to affect my mental health and then we're both going to be in this space where we're challenging ourselves, you know. And so I think, for the longevity of the relationship, for the sake of the relationship, that had to be a conversation that was had and again the intention was love, care, compassion, not trying to shame you, not trying to be dismissive in any way but more so, like you really should be talking to somebody.
Speaker 1:Processing this is clearly difficult stuff.
Speaker 2:It's a lot of information, and it's hard stuff.
Speaker 1:You talk about vicarious trauma, because I think a lot of I would suspect in this situation he is not thinking about the potential vicarious trauma that she might be experiencing, but can you talk a little bit to listeners to understand? You know what that?
Speaker 2:is and vicarious trauma. It happens oftentimes from hearing traumatic incidences over and, over and over again. I think recently they've sort of shifted a little bit to even looking at it as like compassion fatigue. Okay. And so the more.
Speaker 1:Like they're the same thing Essentially Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so it's when there's deep levels of empathy that the listener has towards the person who they're, who was experiencing the trauma, that can start to affect them in very similar ways. Right, and so it can show up in very so, for example, with trauma. Generally speaking, there's hyperarousal, there's avoidance there's re-experiencing.
Speaker 2:As a listener to that, I can find myself starting to feel those same symptoms. Now I'm hyperaroused, can't sleep. Now I'm re-experiencing, reliving those details over and over again. So how you're processing it now becomes how I, vicariously, am processing the same information as if I experienced that trauma firsthand. And so that can happen with continuous exposure to trauma.
Speaker 1:And she's saying every night, every night, that's heavy, yeah, that's a lot.
Speaker 2:And so it's so important for back to, like the caregiver, the burnout piece to be, to be able to identify like. I'm compassionate towards what you are saying, I care about what you are going through at work, I want to be empathetic towards you, but it's causing me to feel burnt out and fatigued and it's traumatizing me at this point.
Speaker 1:So I'd be curious how it was delivered. I mean, I think that we also know that sometimes people can feel really defensive if anybody ever recommends therapy, and so what's really unfortunate is, this situation is a perfect situation, where it's like that's a that's not, that's a really reasonable sort of solution or suggestion for this situation. It's not like there's something wrong with you. You should get therapy. It's like you're going, you're exposed to a lot.
Speaker 1:That is really, really difficult. You need somebody to process that with a therapist is because we're we're when we're talking about vicarious trauma or compassion fatigue. We are trained to handle that information in a way that the average individual who is not a trained therapist we have strategies, we have ways of being able to manage that. You can't expect everybody in your life to know how to do that or be able to do that. They can't be your therapist.
Speaker 2:It's not fair to them. Yeah, that's such a good point. It's really not fair to dump that information on them when they're not a nurse. Yeah, you're not healthcare professionals. They're not trained to handle that level of painful experiences, whether it's physical or emotional painful experiences that you're being exposed to. And so they're left holding onto these pieces, like what do I do with this? Yeah, and that's where, again, they start to feel that trauma themselves, because they don't know how to process it. They don't know how to digest the heaviness of that information.
Speaker 1:And there, and I think that over time it's going to feel less and less good for him to tell her that stuff because she's not feeling good about how that's going Right and so like he might feel better after talking to her now, but over time if he keeps doing it when she doesn't want him to, that actually is not even going to feel good for him anymore either. Whatever benefit he is getting but he'd still he'd be able to get a lot of benefit from talking to a therapist.
Speaker 2:For sure, because all he needs is just to process it, release it. Like, just you don't care who's listening, I just need to get this out. Yeah, and so the journaling is a great way, it's a great alternative. Talking to a therapist is a great alternative. Like you just need to be able to get it out. Like it's just the energy of those emotions that are heavy, yeah, and so it's not like it doesn't have to be her or the spouse?
Speaker 1:It could be anybody. It could be anybody. All right, you have two more.
Speaker 2:All right, so okay. So wait, where am I Partner? Oh wait.
Speaker 1:Number five. Number five.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:Number five.
Speaker 2:So am I the jerk for refusing to let my teen see their estranged father, even though they asked. So their dad left when they were three. No calls, no birthday cards, no support. Now that they're 15, they say they want to meet him. I said no, he'll hurt them again. I'm just trying to protect my kid, but they're furious. Am I the jerk?
Speaker 1:This one is so hard because she has this knowledge of who dad is that son does not have, right, she, she knows the risk that that puts on him. To try to create a relationship that with, maybe, somebody that's not safe or not a good idea, um, and so that's one of the things we don't know. That's a bit of context that we don't know. Is dad a safe person or not? Is it just mom? That's like I didn't like him. He hurt my feelings, he cheated on me, he's he, he's sort of I don't know Like I don't like him for personal reasons, versus he's actually not safe to be around. Right, he's not a safe individual. He makes bad choices. Let's say there's, there's again, substances involve, safety, involved that kind of stuff. So we don't know that context. But that does make a big difference to the answer to this Is this a safety issue or is this just a? He hurt my feelings and I don't think he's a very good person.
Speaker 2:Right? Is this like a hurt people, hurt people situation? Where like I know, it's hurtful for a dad not to talk to the son. He hurt me, regardless of whatever he did, and so this is my way, of like, getting back to him.
Speaker 1:And I'm going to convince myself. I'm doing it for my son, but really, I'm just hurt.
Speaker 1:I'm hurt. So we don't have that context. I think that the thing that I'm seeing the most is sort of how do I communicate with my teenager when they want something and I don't want something? And what role do parents have these days in just saying no versus you know, having a conversation about it and trying to understand what. What are you looking to get? What are the risks involved? Like I would have loved to see a conversation that said like you know, I can understand why you want to know your dad and get to know your dad. Of course you do. My concerns are X, y, z of how you can get hurt. You understand that that's a risk and if he's like I know that's a risk and I'm willing to take it, then how are you there for them If that does happen? Sometimes, as parents, we feel like we have to protect our kids from anything bad happening, but really our role is to be there If the bad thing happens, to help pick them back up again, not to stop it from happening.
Speaker 2:That's helping them to learn resilience.
Speaker 1:Yes, right.
Speaker 2:I might be able, I might take a risk. I might come up from behind this wall. I might expose myself emotionally to hurt and to rejection. I might bounce back. I may not bounce back, but help me to learn and to develop that resilience. Yeah, Because if I stay behind this wall it's safer. Yeah, but I'll never learn what it feels like to face rejection, possible rejection. I might not learn what it feels like to expose myself emotionally but yet still be able to bounce back from that. And so we want to be able to teach them that level of resilience and to be able to take that risk. And again, I think it's so clear and important for us to be able to be clear with ourselves, like how much of my own stuff is coming up? How much am I projecting my own fear of rejection, my own fear of hurt onto this child?
Speaker 1:Because they haven't experienced it.
Speaker 2:I have, but they haven't, and so being able to be self-aware helps us to now be able to separate our own stuff from our teenager, from the child. I think that's a big part of this as well, too.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely, because even in this we see that it's like a 12 year difference. They left when they were three. That was 12 years ago.
Speaker 2:That's changed now for a decade.
Speaker 1:Why is it that you're not assuming at all that this could be a positive thing for them? That dad has now realized we don't know the age of these people. Maybe he was like 15 years old himself. We don't know. You know there's a lot of stuff that we don't know, but I think it does boil down to there is there is a point in parenting, especially when you're parenting teens, that you need to start looking at them, as they're going to be adults soon. They're going to be able to make their own decisions about these things. Do I want them to continue to look to me for guidance and support, or do I want them to be secretive, Because I'm picturing you put your foot down? Well, guess what?
Speaker 2:At 18, it's happening when you don't know it's happening and you don't get to be involved. They have a cell phone. They can find it on their own. Do I want to hold that? Do I want to be accountable for contributing towards a lack of attachment or a lack of relationship that was developed Right? But if there's a desire, how do I support that? Yeah, how do I encourage that. And laying out the risks, yeah, I'm definitely understand that, but then I know.
Speaker 1:I'll be there for you if it does go that way and it won't be, and I told you so. Please don't make it. And I told you so. It's just like. We'll figure it out if it doesn't go as planned and notice if you feel any kind of way of it going well you'll. You'll kind of know where your heart was at.
Speaker 1:You know it's like Ooh, that doesn't feel good, which I get. I get if you've been the primary caregiver. That person just walked away and now they want to try to have all the good of like being a parent.
Speaker 2:Now you want that. Yeah, I can understand feeling kind of way about that, but that is that's about you and it's not about your kid yeah, go to therapy. Talk to somebody.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, last one, last one which I'm reading yes, okay, am I the jerk for telling my in-laws to stop dropping by unannounced? My husband and I recently bought our first home. His parents live nearby and have made a habit of showing up unannounced multiple times a week. I have asked them nicely to text first, but they brush it off, saying family doesn't need permission. Last week they interrupted a client Zoom call. I finally told them we need boundaries, they can't just pop in anymore. My husband agreed, but now his mom is upset saying I'm freezing them out and family members are taking her side. This is what I find interesting In all these scenarios. People are always like everyone else is telling me I am in the wrong and I'm confused, because it feels really straightforward that I'm not.
Speaker 1:This feels really healthy and normal but, somehow the family is on my case about it, and so I always find that little piece interesting. But what are your thoughts about boundaries and in-laws?
Speaker 2:I think that's exactly it, though right that sometimes, when others are recognizing or not recognizing, when others are interpreting your decision as being wrong, it just speaks to their lack of boundaries. It just speaks to the fact that they don't establish effective boundaries or that they allow there to be a violation of their boundaries. And so just because the masses are not agreeing with your boundaries being established does not make them wrong. If anything, it reinforces the need. That's a good point.
Speaker 1:It just reinforces that.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm doing the right thing. This is an important decision that I'm making to have and establish these boundaries, because without them, I'm now going to build resentment. I can stay silent, I can allow there to be a constant flow of interruptions. That's happening. I can allow people to push me to the left and push me to the right, but when that resentment builds, I'm left to hold those pieces and I have no one to blame but myself for not speaking up and not chiming up and not establishing those boundaries. And just because we establish boundaries doesn't mean that they don't need to be constantly reinforced. They need to be constantly reinforced and be reminded of, and so I think it's an important thing. It's not something that makes this person a jerk in any sense of the word. I think it's a necessary request that they're making, considering what the in-laws are doing, considering the situation and the dynamics. You're not cutting them out entirely. You're just saying, like these are the boundaries that I'm establishing.
Speaker 1:Text in advance that this is not well and such an extreme response You're freezing me out. That's a bit of a ooh, that's an extreme sort of that's not freezing someone out. But this is what came to mind for me about boundaries and families. I have noticed this pattern that there's some family systems that equate lack of boundaries with closeness. So they don't understand the the sort of difference. They just think if we don't have boundaries and we're close.
Speaker 1:If we have boundaries, then we're not, we're not close and I think that that's what's at play here is like we're not this close unit If I have to text in advance when the reality is, I can have that closest. I can actually have a deeper closeness when I actually. When you respect my boundaries. I think that's actually something that people don't realize and this is something I teach a lot when I'm teaching about boundaries is boundaries should be movable, based on how the person responds to your boundaries. So, for example, a daughter-in-law will probably want to spend more time with in-laws if they text in advance. Of course, right, but if they continue to not text in advance, she's not going to want to spend more time with them. She is going to be looking to put up even more boundaries of being around them because she's frustrated by their actions. And so I think if we actually equate closeness and families means respecting boundaries oh my God, that changes the entire dynamic.
Speaker 2:Now I'm looking at it differently. Oh, I want boundaries now because that brings us closer, right. And when the boundaries are in place, I recognize that my needs matter to you, and so if I feel like my needs matter to you, I feel more close, I feel more attached to you because I know that my needs matter to you, and so if I feel like my needs matter to you, I feel more close. I feel more attached to you. Yeah, because I know that I can be vulnerable, I can be open, I can allow my emotions to be what they are, whereas if there is no respect to those boundaries and I'm closed off, yeah, I'm guarded, I'm keeping my distance. And so I feel like that's a very important distinction to make and to recognize that the boundaries and the closeness there's actually a correlation there.
Speaker 1:Yep, I feel safe with you when you respect my boundaries and I might open them. Interestingly, I would could even see if they always respected it. Then for certain circumstances you start going like it's not that important, like if it's just come on in, yeah you know it will feel really different, but it's that entitlement to your time and energy and space, like family members, should not feel entitled to the time and energy of their family members.
Speaker 1:It should still be a request, it should still be. You know what I mean? Just the respect, like out of respect.
Speaker 2:There should be that piece there, right. Like I respect you enough to text you I respect you enough to to not violate your boundaries. I respect you enough to be able to be respect you enough to to not violate your boundaries.
Speaker 2:I respect you enough to be able to be there when you want me to and give you the space or the distance when you don't want me you know and I don't take it personally either, yeah, but I think that's a huge part of like just establishing healthy relationships is just knowing when to sort of like move in and when to sort of like pivot Absolutely. And step back and allowing there to be like that flow and that dance, which I think is huge, absolutely.
Speaker 1:All right, good stuff, good stuff. So thank you so much for listening. Thanks, folks. Yes, if you want any of your scenarios answered, we would love to hear from you. Mediaatthemindspaca.
Speaker 2:Yes, Please send us in your stuff. We'd love to talk about it, let's hear them and we'll read them on our next podcast. Thanks again, folks, bye.
