The MindSpa Podcast
The MindSpa Podcast is your go-to space for meaningful conversations around mental health, healing, and personal growth. Hosted by Michelle Massunken RSW and Tina Wilston RP, co-founders of MindSpa Mental Health Centre, each episode explores key mental health topics through expert interviews and thoughtful roundtable discussions.
From managing stress and building stronger relationships to navigating invisible challenges, the MindSpa Podcast offers grounded, professional insights in a warm and accessible way. Tune in weekly for supportive, real-world conversations to help you feel seen, supported, and empowered on your wellness journey.
The MindSpa Podcast
Ep 13 True inclusion isn't a program—it's seeing people as individuals
What happens when well-intentioned DEI efforts actually create more division? Jenny Chen, CEO of Catalais Consulting, challenges us to rethink how we approach inclusion by focusing on respect rather than labels.
Drawing from her powerful experience as both a finance industry leader and a mother watching her daughter face exclusion, Jenny illuminates the systemic issues that keep organizations from truly valuing diversity. Her approach isn't about implementing more DEI programs—it's about "un-DEI-ing" organizations by addressing the root causes of exclusion.
"At the core of all these 'isms'—racism, sexism, ageism—is the question: are people respected? Do they feel seen, heard, and valued?" Jenny explains how looking at diversity challenges through this lens transforms them from identity issues into talent management infrastructure problems. When we stop seeing diversity as a checkbox and start seeing individuals for their potential, we create environments where everyone can thrive.
The conversation explores compelling examples like "The Taylor Swift Effect," where NFL gained $2 billion from new Swiftie viewers despite some fans' resistance. This zero-sum mentality—believing that including others somehow diminishes one's own position—underlies much resistance to inclusion efforts.
Jenny's refreshing perspective reminds us that true inclusion isn't complicated: it starts with seeing people as individuals worthy of respect and opportunity. By integrating inclusive practices into core business operations rather than treating them as separate initiatives, organizations can build cultures where innovation and growth flourish naturally.
Ready to spark meaningful change in your organization? Connect with Jenny at catalais.com or through her podcast "Tune Up your Warrior."
https://catalais.com/tune-up-your-warrior-podcast/
All right, welcome back to another episode of a Mindspa podcast. Today we're so excited to welcome Jenny Chen, the CEO of Catalyst Consulting. Jenny is a passionate advocate for equity, inclusion and belonging in the workplace and beyond. Through Catalyst Consulting, she helps organizations create meaningful change by building cultures that value diversity and empower people to bring their full selves to work. Jenny brings both professional expertise and lived experience to her work, which makes her perspective incredibly authentic and impactful.
Speaker 1:She's here today to share her journey, what inspired her to start Catalyst and how we can all think more intentionally about equity and inclusion in our own communities. Her journey includes a key role as Senior Advisor for DEI at BMO Wealth Management, where she drove initiatives impacting over 6,000 professionals. Her journey includes a key role as Senior Advisor for DEI at BMO Wealth Management, where she drove initiatives impacting over 6,000 professionals. Jenny's visionary leadership has earned her a range of honors, including an Industry Excellence in Innovation Award for designing a parental support program, multiple Ottawa Businesswoman of the Year nominations and recognition as an Excellence Awardee for Female Trailblazers of the Year from Wealth Professionals Awards. Please help us welcome Jenny Chen to our podcast. Jenny, thank you for being here.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Oh my gosh, I don't know where you got that intro from but I would have given you a much shorter version of it. Thank you so much for having me. This is my first in-person podcast interview.
Speaker 1:Oh, we're so excited to have you here. What an impressive bio, and I know that our conversation is going to leave our listeners with a lot of really good information and food for thought, so I'm so glad that you're here with us today, thank you.
Speaker 3:Yes, Thank you. I'm going to kick us off with our first question. So first question is what motivated you to start your company?
Speaker 2:you to start your company, so Catalyst Consulting it's funny because it's in the name Catalyst it is the Gaelic word for the word catalyst because I wanted to be and I think I've always been, the spark to inspire people to want to think differently. So that's why I love your podcast, because it's all about starting conversations right and getting people to think differently about mental health. And I'll use this example because it's very recent. I just finished dealing with it yesterday. But my daughter, savannah she's 11. And she wanted to learn how to play tennis this year. So our whole family got together and we got a tennis membership and we had a few lessons. But I also put her into their summer camp through this tennis school, who I will not name, but I wanted her to find her community through something she's obviously very passionate about find her community through something she's obviously very passionate about.
Speaker 2:She arrived on Monday and was the only girl there. She was the only visible minority and probably a newer to tennis camper Right, and so there were groups of kids that, just you know, made fun of her every time she hit the ball. The punishment for hitting the ball out of the court was to do pushups to touch your nose to the ground, which already I'm like. Are we really punishing kids with exercise? Isn't that a problem in itself?
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Right, but but how? And something can be said that, like, kids will be kids, but who? She is right, she's a girl, she's a visible minority, she's a novice to the sport. The fact that she wanted to show up the one, the fact that she wanted to show up, the fact that she wanted to learn and wanted to be there, was completely overlooked in that situation. And kids are kids. But I'm more disappointed in how the infrastructure was set up to deal with these situations. So it's very much nothing happened to deal with these situations. So it's very much nothing happened. She was seen playing later, so everything is fine. She sat herself out and pulled herself out of the group, right, and so that's on her and I'm sorry she thinks this happened. So no accountability piece, right, and so I think that's a really their response was I'm sorry she thinks this happened.
Speaker 3:Yes, it's on her, basically yes, the's like her, basically yes.
Speaker 2:The counselor said nothing happened. Okay, the counselor said like boys will be boys, right, but it just goes to show you two things because of just who someone is, how they're born, who they are, what school they went to, what experience they've gone through makes them somehow lesser than someone else, even if they really want to be there, and how our introduction as a family into tennis was through this little girl and I'm never renewing my tennis membership, and if they wanted to get more novice players into these camps as members, they could have very well given us a good enough experience that I would want to bring in more people. She will never tell her friends to join tennis. She actually, her confidence is so shaken that she doesn't want to do it again.
Speaker 3:But if you think about our workplaces, right, this is just a microcosm of a bigger issue. Yes, exactly, if you think about our organizations.
Speaker 2:Sometimes we over-engineer the problem that we call racism, sexism, homophobia, right, Like all of these isms that we've created, the underlying root of all of these issues are are people respected? Are they? Do they feel seen, Do they feel heard, Do they feel valued in their organization? And if businesses think that that's not important, I'll give you an example I use all the time, which is the Taylor Swift effect.
Speaker 1:Let's hear it. I'm an org, I'll be like it.
Speaker 2:We're sold. But if you think about like, remember when Taylor Swift right, taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey starts dating, yeah, and then all of the Swifties millions of them showed up to want to watch football. The Super Bowl had more viewership than the moon landing and $2 billion extra went into NFL merchandise, watching the games, advertising everything. And still during that time, current football players were heard to say not my sport, get out of my sport, you don't belong here.
Speaker 3:Right, I heard she got. Didn't she get booed at some point?
Speaker 2:Yeah, she got booed at a game Right Instead. Why don't we think of this as the continuity of that sport Economically? I'm not saying there's not going to be football fans forever there's obviously going to be. But what a great way to invite in people who would never have cared about the sport before, who want to spend money on your franchise, want to spend money buying your team merch and want to show up just to get a glimpse of Taylor Swift and how we can get.
Speaker 2:I think the NFL did a really good job of marketing, marketing and and strategically shifting their business to accommodate this influx of new football fans right because if you can capture them in that moment and then put your arms around them to make them feel like they belong here, yeah, like you have just invited in the entire next generation of business right, what gets in the entire next generation of business Right?
Speaker 1:What gets in the way of that? So it's the idea of like inclusivity versus exclusivity and using those opportunities. So the tennis organization versus like NFL we saw, we see the dichotomy there where two different approaches to these situations and I wonder, like, what gets in the way of organizations recognizing the benefit of even including and using that inclusive opportunity?
Speaker 2:so in 2025, we are still in a world where we have the first or the onlys in the environment whatever environment, environment, school work, right, friends group, whatever it is and so oftentimes the people that are the first or the only have made themselves fit in and kind of hidden, right or mass a lot of the attributes that would make them different, because that's what human nature is. We're very community based, like we want everybody to accept us and right, it's like that, that, that yes, exactly Right. Because back then, like tribalism, right, like you don't want to get kicked out of your tribe, you're gonna get eaten by a lion, right and so like, or like a mammoth or whatever, and so like. Today, we still have that sense of like, we want to belong, and so that is so deeply rooted in human beings. It's fine, but again, the world doesn't look like what it looked like 50 years ago. Canada doesn't look like what it looked like.
Speaker 2:We came here as first generation immigrants in 1989. I came here in 1989 in the aftermath of the Tiananmen Square massacre, as a political refugee. But my story is not the same story as any other Chinese immigrant, canadian woman. We have to see people as the individuals that they are. You talked about intent versus impact in one of your previous podcast episodes and I really loved that, because the intent, the creation of all these DEI quote unquote programs, initiatives, principles, was to build a world, or evolve the world into what the world looks like today, to be relevant for today and representative right, like women didn't have the right to a bank account until 1968.
Speaker 2:Right so?
Speaker 2:of course, of course of course, of course we're going to, you know, be still like, generationally seen as lesser than we didn't have the right to vote, but what we forget is that men in 1929 voted for women to have the right to vote, and the environment that we are today is this zero sum game that actually, you winning makes me lose somehow. Yeah, right, that bringing up other people, communities of people, somehow make me suffer or will take opportunities away from me. I think that's where this landscape has shifted to again. And the increased division. Yeah, exactly so. By creating inclusion, we've actually created exclusion. Right, and so that's that's. Unfortunately, we see it happening in the us right now especially, and all over the world actually, there's a lot of people that don't see themselves in where the world is going. That is the narrative, that how does it look different if you're going into a company to look at their DEI and you want to make a positive change.
Speaker 3:How does that look different?
Speaker 2:So it's funny you say, look at their DEI, because I actually, even though I'm introduced a lot as a DEI consultant, I would say that I come into organizations, to un-DEI themselves, and the reason why is because I navigated my entire career in finance. I started as a bank teller, I was a top performing investment professional and again, I never saw myself as different or wanting to be different. I just wanted to succeed Right, and so I didn't want special treatment like nobody give me something because I am a right, like that was never, never what I wanted, never what I wanted. And so when I started to raise concerns about why in our workforce we have pockets where we still have less than 15% women in certain roles and you go into senior leadership, women and people of color substantially drop significantly. But when we are brought to the table to be given an opportunity, we're still told because of A, b and C, you're not going to be successful in this, and I am inherently incapable of failing. Every single role I've ever gotten, every career move that I've ever had, was because I had leaders who saw my potential, who I was as a person, and then gave me the shot right. And so why is someone less deserving of the opportunity to thrive, to succeed, based on the environment, based on the system itself that was created way long ago, right Before women could vote, before racialized people were in Canada, before we recognized that indigenous communities and the contributions they've made to this country, right Before we came here and like how our organizations, if we just took the diversity lens off.
Speaker 2:Sometimes the problems we're actually trying to solve are infrastructure problems, programmatic policy. They're outdated. So, example 86% of women are in your junior roles. 15% are in key sales roles or leadership roles. That's not a diversity problem you're trying to solve, for that's a talent management infrastructure problem. Right, the way that you manage talent, leadership, succession pipelines, training, development, sponsorship, mentorship is outdated, right, and so we take a look at some of the things that we are trying to solve for as an organization. And why I actually left BMO to start my own company is that sometimes as in-house practitioners, because we're in the environment, it is very difficult to see or break down, to find the root cause of any problem. Right, and so I use this example in our prep was that you know you could be in your house looking for something and you'll look for like three days. You're like where?
Speaker 3:is it and?
Speaker 2:then you take, you stop looking for it, or somebody walks in and they're like oh, it's on your coffee.
Speaker 3:Right, it's been there the whole time. That's how I find everything my kids can't find.
Speaker 1:Perspective shifts yeah.
Speaker 2:So exactly that is just like I learned that we can't create this, systems change, systems redesign. We can't change the world one organization at a time, right In its silo, yeah, and we can't do it one industry at a time, and sometimes, when we're in the tornado, it is very, very difficult to be effective in finding the root cause of a lot of these deeply rooted issues, right? So so, yeah, that's why that's where that comes from. Okay, I love that.
Speaker 1:And so that sort of led to the name of your company, Catalyst.
Speaker 2:Yes, so I mean, I was like whoever has started their own business. There's two things that I wasn't told in the beginning of this journey. That would be the hardest part of this journey, which is finding a name for your company and then finding a logo. Those things took three months you know, because I had this idea.
Speaker 2:I knew what I wanted to do, I knew what I represented, I knew what I could bring after 16 years of not only lived experience but also, you know, organizational redesign experience and culture work. But I was like, what am I trying to do? So my two kids, trinity is 18, savannah is 11. At the time they were both doing chemistry class. And so the word catalyst came up.
Speaker 2:And I'm like, oh, we hear that all the time, right, like there is a big organization called Catalyst and like if we think about Catalyst, it's like making change. It's actually the agent that creates change in chemistry. It creates the reaction. It's not consumed by it, but it's the spark. And so I don't own the work, right, I don't do the work for organizations, but I partner with them to find inspiration, to want to think differently. Like I don't want to tell people what to do, right, but I want to give you a new perspective, a new lens, so that you can actually carry it forward long after our partnership has ended. And so I think that. And then, and then, when I told my branding and logo team, they were like I have the perfect logo. So Catalyst's logo is actually the Gaelic symbol for eternal balance, because I firmly believe that you can be exceptionally profitable as an organization and still have an amazing culture and an amazing workplace, and actually the two are like very deeply woven together. Yeah Right, I love that.
Speaker 1:That's beautiful.
Speaker 3:Something you were speaking to earlier which I'd love to hear you go into more detail about is sort of how, how DI is being the zero sum game that you, you, you mentioned before, where there's winners and there's losers, and that it being such a a core reason why people it actually divides people, people are against it, and usually the people against it are feeling like they're on the losing side of it, and then the people that are for it are then viewed as the ones who are unfairly benefiting from it. And can you just speak to that? Because one of the things we would love is people who are listening to look at that concept differently than what his actually, what the rhetoric or what the conversation has been so big on that topic recently.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I mean, like I said it's, it's the intent was, if you think about when all of the the DEI initiative, right, Like whatever you want to call it, this like surge of people talking about DEI unquote and I always use quote unquote, like I always put air quotes but I say DEI because it'd be it did become a buzzword, right like it did become a thing that every company needed to put on their mission statement somewhere to show that they were an inclusive environment that they have. They celebrate, celebrate diverse employees, et cetera, et cetera. And then you go, you peep, you peep under the hood of these organizations.
Speaker 1:You're like wait a?
Speaker 2:minute.
Speaker 2:No right Like this is a bait and switch type of situation. And so what we did create trying to, by trying to create inclusion and systems of inclusion we created if you look around, we have DEI committees in every organization Employee resource groups is the first thing that companies create to say we're inclusive here, that sense of community. So you have employee resource groups for everyone. Now you have for black employees, chinese employees, latino, Hispanic, indigenous women, and every, every one of those employees go and join these groups for sense of community. I get it Because sometimes in your office you might be the only isolating Asian, because sometimes in your office you might be the only Asian colleague, but join this group in your organization and now you can talk about all of the things that you're experiencing as the only right how to fix these things.
Speaker 2:But you're just preaching to the choir, right? And I actually used the example once when a company said we need you to come in and tell us how to start an employee resource group. I'm like OK, so like, what are you trying to do? Yeah, we want to empower employees who are women To go for these higher level roles, to get trained, to get mentorship, to get sponsorship. That's great, Right, but as a woman one, I would never want to get a job because this company needs more women in these roles, because they're embarrassed, right, because, just like Savannah in the tennis school, she was the only girl.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when she got there, she could have brought other friends of hers the next year to join, but the environment did not support her success or even her potential, right? And I feel like employee resource groups continue to isolate the problem. You have all these speakers come in to talk to these employee resources, but you don't have to tell me. You don't have to have in to talk to these employee resources, but you don't have to tell me. You don't have to have a speaker tell me.
Speaker 1:I get it. The experience is like you're good right.
Speaker 2:You don't need to tell me what the problem is. So where are the key decision makers in the organization? They're not part of these. Actually, most of the ones that are are from those underrepresented backgrounds. So when you look at the intent, though, it's because they're trying really hard to find ways to support more women, to show that they are being supported, to help them with their careers right, yeah, and so I feel that one it's costly to do that, yeah, it's very costly to these programs can get canceled, as we have seen with this huge wave of, you know, being woke. Oh, this organization is woke, but, yeah, how we course correct, how organizations are trying to course correct, I think matters.
Speaker 2:Look at Target they just reported historic lows after their cancellation because they got quote unquote canceled for scaling back on all their DEI efforts.
Speaker 2:But if you take a look at Google and other big organizations, when the new administration stepped in, they were saying okay, we know that any word that sounds like diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, right, it's going to get canceled, isn't going to receive federal support, funding, right, and they're coming after us.
Speaker 2:So how do we make sure that we still embody the values, like the core values of building an inclusive workplace, equitable workplace and supporting the communities in which we serve, without seeming like we're just pulling back all of our DEI efforts that we've built today? And they did it so poorly that again people are like well, you no longer embody the values that I share and so I'm taking my money elsewhere? Right, and so how we I think how organizations want to solve for this issue and how they go about it right, intent and impact are very, very important, and I think that's why an outside perspective a lot of times is really that spark right To be like okay, I see what you're trying to do, let's do it this way, and I think the best example of that is I had an organization reach out to me because they wanted to bring on more black clients, right, and I'm like, okay, tell me why, right like what, what is?
Speaker 2:it. So they, they did. They use data to pinpoint that demographically they don't have a lot of engagement with black communities. They're not out, absolutely not Number one, because if you've never invited those employees to be part of anything before, they will be so offended because nobody wants to be the token. Why don't you just make sure that in your regular marketing videos that you highlight the breadth of diversity in your workforce and that way you can show people authentically that like hey, we're trying to build, we're trying to create this culture of inclusion. We're doing all the work. It's embedded into our core operations, our regular business strategy, and it's not just like a side project.
Speaker 3:Right or with this sort of intent to bring in more money. It's just organic. It's organic Right to bring in more money.
Speaker 2:It's just organic, it's organic right and that's how you actually create long-term sustainable change and in the environment that we're in right now the current climate, politically, I would say anywhere, not just in the States like Canada we were very close to having that narrative home right and in the UK, like all of the things that are happening, impacting trans communities Brexit, right. And in the UK, like all of the things that are happening impacting trans communities Brexit right. And even immigrants everywhere right. It's like if we can just stop putting.
Speaker 2:DEI on the problem like it's a diversity problem. Actually, why do we want immigrants in our country? Well, because we don't have enough doctors, we don't have enough engineers here. They're not coming out of school fast enough, they're not being trained in the workforce fast enough, and we actually have a global talent crisis. Except, we let doctors from anywhere in the world come here and drive Ubers, right, and we don't see them for the talent that they bring because of who they are, where they're, from, what school they went through, yeah, right, and so that that has to change that we actually start realizing and seeing people for their potential, versus what we think they should look like, right.
Speaker 3:I hope I can. I just wanted to tell a story because I feel it's really relevant. I have a really good friend who was in the corporate law world and her company was so passionate about her becoming partner. Like they wanted her. They were always talking to her about her career advancement. Like they wanted her, they were always talking to her about her career advancement. They were so encouraging of it and she just kept saying no it wasn't a desire of hers.
Speaker 1:She just didn't want it.
Speaker 3:But there was, there was a very singular reason why and again it felt very much. It was like you're a woman, though.
Speaker 1:We really need you. You're a woman we really need you.
Speaker 3:And she said I don't want the lifestyle of a partner. I am a mother and I see your lifestyle and I see that you don't go to your kids games and you don't like you're, you're here all the time and all this. And she said without that change, I have zero interest in becoming a partner. And they're like how about? How about we give you more money, because then you can pay for a cleaner and you can pay for a nanny and you can pay for all of these things? And she was like you're literally not hearing the words that I'm saying as to the core, as to why I have no interest in that.
Speaker 3:And even I see it with government employees too, a lot where they'll say I don't want to go the next level up because I don't want to be the person that I have to be to the people below me in order to take that role. And then if you start asking yourself okay, so why would somebody who is maybe a woman or a person of color and that type of stuff, why would they not want that next level of advancement in their career, in their career? If we don't change those things at that higher level, then you're just going to keep seeing the same type of person. Want that higher role.
Speaker 2:Or why do we have this perception that you have to get to? Like the end goal is to get to that level of success? Right Like, how's that defined? Right Like, why isn't it? Your choice is what comes back to, because that can be said on both sides too. Yeah, I was trying to. I was already a top ranked investment professional, but I was trying to pivot. I was doing all mybased salesperson who was bringing in a lot of business and thriving. I was told oh, your kids are too young, so you know what? It's a really difficult lifestyle. Right to be an investment advisor. Or, oh, you're still still young. What if you want to have other kids? Like these were said to you out loud. Oh yeah, and this is industry, though.
Speaker 3:Right like, this is an industry, so you could talk to me, said today, or was that like because so I'm just so people knew they couldn't say that out loud they, they're still obviously thinking it.
Speaker 2:They might not say the same things, but the perception is there. Is that again, because of who I am? Because I don't model what the traditional stockbroker is? I don't have the same lifestyle, I'm not even the same gender demographic that they're looking for. It's like I know that I'm inherently incapable of failing. I know that I've been in the people business my entire life and that, you know, nobody wants to work with Wolf of Wall Street now, anyways, in the world that we live in today why don't you just have someone like me?
Speaker 2:Because you don't have anyone else like me.
Speaker 3:Right, right and let me know what that looks like.
Speaker 2:Exactly, and let me show you what I can do. And so sometimes we do it not out of malicious intent, but to protect people Right, because we don't want them to fail. But again, why isn't that the choice? So when given the opportunity, it's almost like oh, we have to take it because this is the expectation, because they don't have one like me and I need to be the only, the first and the only partner, whatever it is senior leader executive right.
Speaker 2:But the environment? If the environment does not support what is important to you or for you to actually succeed both in business and in life, then what is the point?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a really good point. And that goes back to the idea of, like, looking at the roots when there is a lack of inclusion. What are the systemic issues? Yeah, and how did those systemic issues get in the way of the desire for someone to elevate or to promote or to, you know, go further in their career? Yeah, but if those root causes or systemic issues are not addressed, then there continues to be that gap.
Speaker 2:you know, I think that's a big, exactly missing. And so, if you think about how we even look for talent we go to, the large corporations had to report from the affirmative action you know all of the regulations that came from that they had to report on the diversity of their workforce and guess what, we don't have a lot of right, diverse populations in our workforce. And so they were like looking for talent. But they were going to the same schools, they were going to the same golf clubs, they were going to the same like everywhere, to networks of people. And so I'll give you an example. I was working with one of our executives who said you know, I came from Howard University and there's like 3,000 highly talented people, very smart, really brilliant people. They never looked there right. They would go to like I'm going to use this as an example but like Harvard and find the five people of color in that university and say like, ah, you don't really fit, nor do you want to come into this industry, but like we need you.
Speaker 3:So, like we're going to try and fit you, we're going to, we're going to, we're going to, we're going to, we're going to, you know, uh, give up some of these requirements just to make sure we can hire you, and then, when you get there, you don't have what you need or the desire to succeed there, Right, it's also such like almost like I'm picturing the Russian nested dolls piece, because if you start thinking about, well, what's Harvard's process on bringing on talent into those universities if that's broken, and then if the schools that Harvard pulls from to bring their students in and their processes have issues in them when it comes to inclusion, now we have this whole really layered circle, absolutely it's absolutely it.
Speaker 3:If no one questions it, if no one says we need to actually go to the source, then you're putting I don't know a Band-Aid on a gaping wound.
Speaker 2:Exactly Right and like we all know that the system is, so like it's everywhere.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's in our education system, it's in our workplace, it's in our businesses, right, it's in society. So, if we don't start from, okay, what are we actually trying to do? Right, like, what are we trying to do and why are we using yesterday's thinking to solve today or tomorrow's problems? Because if we don't think differently, then we're not going to do anything differently.
Speaker 3:So what, like if you were to think about what needs to change, let's say, at the home level what needs to change, let's go, we'll just go Canada. What needs to change at the home level? What needs to change at the school, elementary sort of school level? Do you have any thoughts on that? If we start seeing change happening in those earlier phases, um, so that people are growing up with the right mentality that when they are in the workplace they're not going to keep reinstituting the same sort of problems, do you?
Speaker 2:so I'll give you an example. Um, we already know that kids aren't born with discrimination, with hate, with exclusion. Right, that's taught through society, through our homes, through social media. Somewhere along the line it somebody has been told that it was acceptable to treat people this way. It doesn't matter, right, what background they're from. So my daughter had her senior year this year and all of the grade 12s in Ottawa went to the Ottawa Senators game to fundraise.
Speaker 2:And at the time she had a group of her and other Asian friends all in a row and there were two young women behind her that started chanting Asian slurs, racial slurs, at the workers, the volunteers that were coming out. And so my daughter because she's my daughter turned around and looks disapprovingly at these two young women and those two young women turned those slurs at her. Wow, in 2024. Right, and maybe that's my fault for not preparing her for that situation, because I'm like can't happen to her. 24 happened to me, but it can't happen to her. Happened to me, but it can't happen to her. Right, because this is the world, people should know better. But I actually took my mama bear hat off and I emailed the superintendent of the school board and the board trustee and the school. The school never got back to me. That's fine. But the superintendent took me out for lunch and we had a really great conversation because I said I would hate for this situation to define these young women's lives for the rest of their university career Like listen, coming out of talent management. I know that we are very sensitive about what's out there and all it would have taken is one video of these two young women on the internet from that night and they would not get into university and they would not get a career later. And you know, I would never want the decisions I made at 17 to define me for the rest of my life. So this is a learning moment, and if they're not given that feedback because feedback is fuel If we're not given feedback, if we're not told how our actions impact other people, what our experiences have been like, have been like, if we take all of these isms that I talked about racism, sexism, ageism, whatever at the root of it, it's like we weren't respected as human beings.
Speaker 2:We weren't respected as individuals. We were made to feel different. Our differences were weaponized against us and ostracized us from feeling like we belong, right. And so I feel like, if it comes down to it, somebody might say, oh, that's a microaggression. What you're saying, is it? Or is it just because you're not respecting or you're not coming from a place of kindness and respect when you're talking to people? Right? And also, like your experiences don't define someone else's reality, right? So just because you have never experienced that before doesn't mean that somebody who is their reality is not valid, absolutely Right. And so, yeah, I think that we have a long way to go, but if we can just start there as an organization, as a community, as families, I think we'll go a long way.
Speaker 3:Yeah, amazing.
Speaker 1:I love that and that helps us to look ahead. Right. It's how do we get to that place where we can actually go a long way head right, it's how do we get to that place where we can actually go a long way. And so, when you think about the future of what that can look like, and what it can look like 10 years from now for the next generation of folks, when they're in similar experiences, what excites you about that? What do you want that to look like?
Speaker 2:So I'm only I say this all the time I'm only here because along my journey, people like I had leaders everywhere, people everywhere that saw me right, gave me the opportunity, gave me the opportunity to fail, because with every accolade you had named a few of them, like every award I won, I have 100 times more failures and more setbacks than I do accolades and successes, and so I think that we've always been capable of being great leaders, of being great people. We just kind of put a label on it now, and so everybody that doesn't see themselves under this label of inclusive leader, back to what I was saying before what's an inclusive leader?
Speaker 3:Isn't that just a?
Speaker 2:good leader.
Speaker 3:Right. Why do you have to put a label? Why do you have to call it something?
Speaker 2:So what is it that you're trying to achieve with diversity trainings, unconscious bias training, microaggression training? Aren't you at the root of it? Just trying to teach people managers how to understand their teams and every team member's individual needs right, instead of putting your own experiences to shape someone else's reality? And so I'm excited that, number one, we're having this conversation.
Speaker 2:So that's the big thing, that more people want to have these conversations and and when I speak on like a UK podcast, I was just on a Belgium podcast it's like these are not Canada problems, they're not Ottawa problems, they're not even North American problems, they're like global issues. And so the more conversations that we have and the more spaces that we're in to have these dialogues, I think we will get very, very far.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm curious from your perspective because I feel like the more that we focus on how we're the same than focusing on how we're different, even when it comes to communication, one of my favorite strategies is like okay, if somebody's saying something you don't agree with, start with trying to figure out what you do agree with and start there in the conversation. Start with how we're the same and from there then we can start actually understanding each other a lot better, because, like, okay, you and I are the same on this. Now we can start looking at how we might be different. But if we start with how we're different, I don't know, it just changes the tone of the conversation.
Speaker 2:Robert Putnam. He was a political advisor for Barack Obama and he wrote he has that Netflix special called like Join or Die. It's about bowling, the resurgence of bowling. Anyways, he said that one of the things that Obama was really good at doing was sitting in a room with Democrats and Republicans two most polarizing teams in the universe.
Speaker 2:Right Worse than here, but like two of the most polarizing polarized groups in the world, he would sit there and he would listen and he would never speak. And when somebody is like, oh, why don't you talk in these meetings? Like why don't you give your feedback in these meetings? And he always lets people speak, even if it takes like an hour, right, Both sides hash it out and he'll say what you're actually talking about is the same thing, right?
Speaker 2:what you're actually talking about is the same thing, right, right. But because, again, we're in it, we all want to be right. Also, right, we will all want to express our point of view. We don't listen to each other anymore, yeah, and so how he's able to? Just by not speaking and listening to people with an open mind, he can actually find similarities in something that's very, very different.
Speaker 2:Right as to political views, and I think that's the thing is, like our differences are actually what's going to bridge gaps in understanding, right, how to make us realize that, at the end of the day, everybody just wants the same basic human needs. Yeah, right, food on the table, like a roof over our head, respect, compassion, human empathy and so like, if we just start there and then, when people are speaking to us, even if they're on, let's say, they're on a different political party or they have different views or beliefs on so-and-so, as long as we share the same core values and we want the same basic human needs, like, why wouldn't we want to listen to each other, right, right, and if we come from a place of learning and openness and understanding, I think we will kind of move past a lot of these like oh well, that's not how I think. So that's not how things work, right. Yeah, and, and, and.
Speaker 3:Move forward from there so in a lot of ways it's simpler than we've all made it.
Speaker 1:It really is complicating matters, we're complicating things more. Isn't that what we do?
Speaker 2:that's the human nature isn't that what we do, we either oversimplify right and then you have surface level solutions or we make really already really complex issues right, so incredibly perplexing, and we over engineer it. And that's why organizations spin their wheels right, because they're have they've over-engineered the problem to be this massively complex entity when really, if you just like, peel back the layers or take of the onlys in the room, but also leading diversity, equity, inclusion in a global organization.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much for being here today. This has been an absolutely amazing conversation. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so how can people get in contact with you? So they do want to hire a Jenny if they want to learn more about what you do. What's the best way for them to reach you? So they?
Speaker 2:do want to hire a Jenny. If they want to learn more about what you do, how. What's the best way for them to reach you? So they can find me at catalystcom C-A-T-A-L-A-I-Scom. I'm on Instagram. I do a lot on LinkedIn.
Speaker 3:I'm very uncomfortable with it, by the way.
Speaker 2:So I'm like oh, I don't want to bombard people, but I also want to get a lot. That's the best place for your message, yeah exactly Because, yeah, and I also have my own podcast called Tune Up your Warrior on anywhere that you get your podcast. So I was telling you both that we're going to do this pod swap as we call it in this industry. And I'm looking forward to having you both on there.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. We hear your passion and what you do and we're inspired by it. So continue to do what you do. We'll make sure that all of those contacts are in the show notes as well. Thanks again for being here. Thank you for having me. Oh my gosh, I love it.
