The MindSpa Podcast
The MindSpa Podcast is your go-to space for meaningful conversations around mental health, healing, and personal growth. Hosted by Michelle Massunken RSW and Tina Wilston RP, co-founders of MindSpa Mental Health Centre, each episode explores key mental health topics through expert interviews and thoughtful roundtable discussions.
From managing stress and building stronger relationships to navigating invisible challenges, the MindSpa Podcast offers grounded, professional insights in a warm and accessible way. Tune in weekly for supportive, real-world conversations to help you feel seen, supported, and empowered on your wellness journey.
The MindSpa Podcast
Ep 17 Sleep, Boundaries, and Choices
When mental health conditions collide with relationships, the resulting challenges can be both complex and deeply personal. Whether it's OCD compelling someone to redo their partner's cleaning efforts, ADHD causing repeatedly forgotten birthdays despite genuine efforts, or autism necessitating a quick exit from overwhelming social gatherings – these scenarios reveal how our brains profoundly impact our connections with others.
Throughout this thought-provoking episode, we examine five different relationship scenarios where mental health takes center stage. What happens when a woman with OCD can't accept her husband's cleaning methods? How should someone with ADHD respond when their friend feels "invisible" after another forgotten birthday? Is wanting separate bedrooms because of sleep incompatibility truly "a step toward divorce," or simply prioritizing health and well-being?
We dive particularly deep into the dynamics of family traditions and the guilt often weaponized against those who prioritize their mental health needs. The classic holiday scenario – where setting boundaries with toxic family members gets labeled as "selfish" – resonates with countless listeners who face similar struggles. We unpack how these manipulative dynamics work and offer perspectives on maintaining your peace without reinforcing harmful narratives.
Perhaps most importantly, this episode highlights the crucial difference between feeling disrespected and actually being disrespected. When we personalize others' actions – assuming their behavior is about us rather than their own internal experiences – we often misinterpret situations in ways that damage relationships. Understanding mental health conditions helps us separate the person from their symptoms and respond with compassion rather than judgment.
Whether you're managing a mental health condition yourself or navigating relationships with someone who does, this episode provides valuable insights into communication strategies, boundary setting, and finding balance between meeting your needs and maintaining meaningful connections with others. The path forward isn't about choosing between mental health and relationships – it's about creating space for both to thrive together.
All right, welcome back to the Mind Spa podcast Today's episode. We are going to be doing our fun, am I the a-hole pose? And so, michelle, do you want to kick us off with the first one? Sure.
Speaker 2:So I, a 33 female, live with my husband, who's 36, male, and I have been managing OCD for years. One of my compulsions is around cleanliness, particularly the kitchen. My husband tries to help, but he never does it my way. I usually wait until he's asleep and redo the whole thing. He recently found out and got hurt, saying I made him feel useless. I didn't mean to disrespect his effort, it's just the only way I can relax in our home. Am I the a-hole for redoing what he thought was helping?
Speaker 1:Interesting post.
Speaker 2:Have you worked with?
Speaker 1:OCD much.
Speaker 2:No, I don't think I um, yeah, no, not, not as much as PTSD. I mean, I have actually I have had some comorbidities at play, yeah, and so it does show up in different ways, with perhaps PTSD being like the primary, but not directly being seen, for OCD and OCD only.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, I wouldn't say that I've worked with it a lot. But what I would say that I see the most often with it is, especially as we enter into the beginning phases of therapy, is there's a mindset, often with OCD, that if the other person would just do what I need them to do, I would not suffer so much, I would be better. So if I have a cleanliness one, if they just put their shoes where I've asked them to put their shoes, if they would just go change their clothes whenever they get home especially if it's the contamination cleanliness one they're like, if they would just do it, then I'd be fine. And what we definitely know a hundred percent is that is an avoidance strategy.
Speaker 1:I do not like the discomfort that I feel when things are not done as I want them to done, the my way of the cleaning I. That makes me very, very uncomfortable. That's the whole thing about PTSD and I say very, very that that minimizes it. It's. It can be excruciatingly uncomfortable if things aren't done the way that I want them to. But what they don't understand often if they're in therapy and what we try to teach is no, every time you engage in that behavior, every time you stay up at night and clean the house. You're going to feel better temporarily, but you're actually solidifying the OCD long term big picture. It's going to make it worse over time because right now you might have my way, looks like X, Y, Z, but then it's going to be a, b, c, d, exactly it snowballs, right it changes in a lot of ways, which is the challenging piece.
Speaker 2:I think it's being able to realize that how do I separate, like the ocd from me? Yeah right when it comes to like interacting with my husband in this for this poster, for example, like being able to identify that the ocd might be very particular when it comes to how the cleanliness is and how it's done and what that looks like, and being able to even communicate that with your partner is important, right.
Speaker 2:I had a client who, again his partner, had the contamination type of OCD and it was horrible Like it was very challenging for him because nothing that he could do would make it okay, and he would come home, put his clothes in the wash, he would clean the floors, like, do everything. But again, when the OCD is at play, that becomes a primary piece there, right? And so the partner, the spouse they're not the ones who you're interacting with in those moments, it's the OCD, it's the anxiety of this is contaminated, and so, without separating those two, he will personalize it and he will feel as if it's something, there's something that I'm doing that makes it okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But that separation becomes important for both people to be able to get to the place of doing like this is not about you, this is, this is the OCD at play, yeah, and this is how it's showing up right now. So trying not to own it but separating the two is going to be helpful too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like the post when I read it. I don't think this person is getting help with their OCD Because if they were going to their therapist with this, the therapist would be saying, first of all, yeah, you need to be having that communication and conversation with your partner. Your partner should be aware that it is not personal, that this is something that you're struggling with, and we would be encouraging actually the partner definitely not to be trying to clean their way. Don't try to emulate their clean. That is going to make things worse actually. But also with our client being like you have to work on your feelings towards thinking that if the world would just change and do what you need, then you'd feel better, because we also know that's actually not true and so there's definitely not an a-hole, definitely not like that's a very easy answer. But also, what you're doing is not okay for you.
Speaker 2:And so there has to be like a level of accountability at play right. So, if this is the OCD that's showing up and that's caused me to interact with my partner this way, what am I doing proactively, what are my intentions that I'm doing, to ensure that this doesn't continue to show up and impact how he's feeling about himself or about the dynamics in our relationship? And so there definitely has to be a level of accountability and proactivity. Yeah, and realizing the role that this is playing and how it's impacting the relationship.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because she's the only one who can work on this. There's nothing actually he can do. Yeah, that's going to help her or help the situation. Yeah, but if she says, well, if he could just be okay that I do this, then everything's okay.
Speaker 2:We know that's not true.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, fantastic. I will read the next one. Am I the a-hole for forgetting my friend's birthday, even though I set reminders? I, 29-year-old male, have ADHD and genuinely struggle with time and memory, even with alarms, calendar apps and sticky notes. I missed a close friend's birthday this year, again despite setting reminders. She told me she felt invisible and like she doesn't matter to me. I apologize and try to explain, but she says I always have an excuse. I feel awful but also overwhelmed trying to keep up with everything. I love this one because it's so relatable to anybody with ADHD, I'm sure. And so, yeah, what are your?
Speaker 2:thoughts yeah, I think very similar to the other one is being able to recognize that mental health does have an impact in our relationships and if we are not mindful of it, it can really impact our relationships in an unhelpful way.
Speaker 2:And so that's where, again, being able to identify, even having our loved ones understand what some of our challenges are right, being open with them about.
Speaker 2:Okay, you know what my ADHD sometimes shows up like this or it contributes to forgetfulness. It's not intentional, but this is how it might show up at times. I think sometimes being able to explain it that way and be able to allow folks to understand the role that the ADHD has plays in your interactions. I think that sometimes gives a bit more grace, you know, than it would otherwise if it feels as if it's personal or like you just don't seem to care about my birthday. But being able to understand that mental health does have an impact, it affects those around us, you know, and having them understand, you know that you're struggling with these symptoms despite efforts sounds like they did a lot of good things with the reminders and things of that nature. Yeah, um, but adhd shows up in different ways and it does affect our relationships and that's important for others to really understand and to see yeah, you know, what stood out to me was her saying I feel invisible and you're always making excuses.
Speaker 1:Interestingly, that's the part that stuck out to me of a curiosity, because what we also know when people tell a story, because when you read that right off the hop you're like, okay, this guy really tried and she's like really being unfair in this situation to like not give him credit at all for trying. And Andy has ADHD. So therefore, and for the most part, I'm actually a hundred percent on board with that, but the way that the story is framed, sometimes what people do is this might be a bigger issue in their friendship. It might there might be more, because we know what some of the other symptoms of ADHD can look like. And, let's say, if also you're forgetting birthdays but also you never let her get a word in edgewise, and it's almost like you're just having a monologue at her every time you talk to her, that could also make her feel invisible.
Speaker 1:If you're chronically late for things and instead of saying like owning that you were late, you sort of make excuses that aren't even it's one thing to say I have ADHD, I'm really sorry, I get time blindness, and I think that's a good conversation to have, and I set alarms and I do all these things, but sometimes I still lose track versus, well, I'm actually late because of the time blindness, but I'm going to tell you about the traffic and I'm going to tell you about all these things that are like outside of my control.
Speaker 1:Right, Like, oh, this person called me at the last minute and I needed to help them with something, or you start making all of these other excuses when the reality is all that stuff could have happened and you still could have been on time if it actually wasn't for your time blindness or the ADHD. So it did, did, did make me a little bit curious as to how the thing was framed. It feels like you immediately want to be like no, you're definitely not. I'm a little curious whether there's more to it and why she feels invisible and that you make excuses all the time. So if I were receiving that feedback from a friend, I'd want to know more about that. Can you tell me more about the invisible? Like, is it just about me forgetting the birthday for a second time or is there more to it? Are there other ways I make you feel invisible? Are there other ways you feel like I make excuses um yeah I.
Speaker 1:I feel like I'd want to explore more to it, yeah and and I do think it would show a lack of compassion if friend can't depersonalize that because it sounds like they really did put in effort particular for this birthday thing. It sounds like maybe they took you were really upset last time I did this. So I'm really going to like I'm going to put in this conscious effort and I feel really bad for the guy that like he put in all the effort and it didn't work Right. So definitely again, not that a-hole at all, but increased communication and potentially curiosity around how else do I maybe disappoint you in our friendship could provide some insight.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like that and I think that's true for most friendships. Right, they might, especially if there's not often spaces where we're talking about things that might come up as issues or that might bother us. This might be sort of like that tip of the iceberg piece that allows us to now really start to feel more comfortable talking about other things. That allows us to now really start to feel more comfortable talking about other things. So perhaps they've let a few things go here and there, but there are perhaps other things that they haven't brought to the surface and we sometimes need these moments to give us that permission to talk about these things otherwise. But I think I agree that there's more to it and she perhaps hasn't shared other reasons why she feels invisible. But this is a good opportunity now that it's come up as her birthday. It's okay I can talk about the other times that I felt invisible, that I just hadn't talked to you about before.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah so, yeah, better communication on both their parts agree, yeah, agree, agree.
Speaker 2:Okay, do you want to read the, or did I read which one I can read that?
Speaker 1:okay. Marital conflict am I the a-hole for wanting separate bedrooms even though we're still in love? I, 38 year old female, and my husband, 41 year old male, have a good marriage but vastly different sleep needs. He snores, I toss and turn and neither of us sleeps well together. I asked if we could try separate bedrooms and he took it very personally. I said he said it felt like a step towards divorce, but I just want to sleep without rage or resentment. Isn't sleep hygiene also love?
Speaker 2:That's such an important topic. I feel like we underestimate the power of sleep and the importance of sleep in our day-to-day functioning right In our brain health in our physical health. It's like we know, but we minimize it, we minimize it. Yeah, you know, and I feel like that's. With that minimization, it's easy to personalize these kind of requests right.
Speaker 2:It's easy to kind of think, well, is it something that I'm doing or whatever the case is?
Speaker 2:But I think, when it comes to this poster, it's being able to separate the um, the separate beds, doesn't mean separation, right?
Speaker 2:Just because we want to be able to get good quality sleep, we want to be able to feel restful in the morning, does not mean that our relationship is in jeopardy or that our relationship is on the fence or anything of that nature. I think it's really being able to understand that I'm actually healthier, I'm actually more pleasant to be around, I'm actually feeling more personable when I get good sleep. I think sometimes it's again back to the communication piece. Right? How am I communicating this to my partner? Am I allowing him to realize and reinforce how this is a win-win and how me getting good sleep, him getting good sleep, allows us to now function well together, versus both of us getting poor sleep, waking up feeling exhausted and then dealing with the world after that? So I think part of it is getting communicating to each other why that's a win-win and why this is not a sign of divorce or a step towards divorce but, more so, a step towards good health.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know what it made me think of? There was a celebrity, but I don't remember the name of the celebrity. I was really hoping it would come back to me, but I can't remember who was actually going on media and and talking about their, their sleeping arrangement, and that they had separate bedrooms and she was trying to normalize it and she was trying to actually like speak how, how, how great it was for their situation. And then it doesn't mean this meaning associated to it, it means there's something wrong in the relationship. I think that's the biggest problem is the meaning that the husband associated with it.
Speaker 1:I would be curious, though this is what popped into my head, and if I had this person working with me, I would be very curious Did you try anything else? And how open was your partner to those other things? Right, because it's like, okay, you toss and turn. So what's your mattress situation? Right? What's the size of your bed situation? Cause there's those do not disturb mattresses, and there's the bigger the bed, the less. That would actually potentially be an issue is that you're tossing and turning.
Speaker 1:Is it like him being in the bed? The less that would actually potentially be an issue Is that your tossing and turning? Is it like him being in the bed beside you that bothers your tossing and turning, or is it I worry that it's bothering him, or he expresses that it bothers him. So he might be like, yes, you toss and turn, but I don't care. So I don't understand why you need to leave rooms because I'm not bothered by that, or is it? I stay up at night worried that you're bothered by it, and so that's why I want to switch rooms.
Speaker 1:And I would just be really, really curious, even when it comes to snoring, have we tried anything else in the sense of has he checked for sleep apnea? Have you tried earplugs? Have you tried white noise? Have you been able to have constructive conversations about these are problems and can we come up with a solution? And I can understand her point of view. If let's say she's like I've tried white noise, I have tried this, we've tried that, and he has not been open to any of these things. Let's say he's like well, I don't, I don't like white noise. And we, I don't, I like our mattress, I don't want to change mattresses. And I don't, I don't, I don't like white noise. And we, I don't, I like our mattress, I don't want to change mattresses and I don't want to get tested for. Do you know what I mean? First leave apnea and all this kind of stuff it's like. And now she's like okay, I want a separate room. To me that's a very different conversation than if it's like we've actively been trying to problem solve it.
Speaker 1:We try together. We've really done a good job trying to figure this out and nothing has worked so far, and now the only solution I see left is to potentially try different rooms.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like, even if that is, if all else has failed and this becomes our only solution, how do I ensure that there's still elements of closeness in our relationship? And so how do I build in some cuddle time during the day? How do I build in some time where we might be reading together or watching a movie together, where we might go for a walk together? Those things again help to reinforce to him that this isn't the end, all be all, this isn't the end of our relationship. There are still ways that we can have closeness. There's still ways that we can show intimacy without being in the same bed at night, when we're sleeping. We might again, that might look different for us, you know, but I think if there is an absence of that piece there where there's intimacy shown throughout the day or throughout other moments in addition to we're not in the same bed, I can see how he would personalize that. Right, it's like, okay, well, where is the closeness then? It doesn't show up in the day or in the night, and so that could be a very difficult piece for him to absorb, whereas if we integrate it and have it look different, then, it doesn't hold as much weight when it's just the fact that we're in separate beds, when we're sleeping only.
Speaker 1:I would definitely be curious about that intimacy side of things, because if that part of it isn't addressed right. How do we make sure that we don't just become roommates? Exactly, because what we do know is there's a bit of a pandemic, a source of of married couples feeling like roommates. That intimacy is gone, and I would say I can see why he might think this is the next step towards divorce if that was already gone, exactly, and now we're actually going to be sleeping in.
Speaker 2:This was the last thing we held on to.
Speaker 1:Right, right. So I would definitely be exploring all of that stuff and, yeah, getting a bit curious on why they went straight to no because of this meaning I attached to it, which just means something bad about our marriage. It's like if you have a great, healthy marriage, you shouldn't be thinking sleeping in separate beds is the end of the marriage. That just seemed like an extreme step in my mind. So I'm like how do we get to that conclusion?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was an extreme.
Speaker 1:Unless unless if they had divorced parents and they're like. The first thing I remember before they told me they were getting divorced is that they started sleeping in separate rooms. That is actually. We know that does happen. Yeah, 100%, but I always think there's some things that work 100% of the time in one direction but doesn't always work the way backwards, where it's like everybody who gets divorced probably sleeps in separate bedrooms just before they divorce, because you don't usually like move out the day you say that's over.
Speaker 1:You don't normally move out. So it usually works about maybe not 100 percent, but in one direction. But sleeping in different bedrooms it does not work the other way around. And if he doesn't but if he doesn't know anybody that does that in a really healthy way yeah, you kind of get why he might go there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, context is healthy way. Yeah, you kind of get why he might go there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, context is everything you want to read. The next one, sure thing number four.
Speaker 2:So i-35 non-binary come from a very manipulative family. Every holiday turns into a circus of guilt, backhanded and emotional landmines. This year I said no to Christmas and I planned a quiet day with my partner. Instead, my mom sent a long message about family being everything and accused me of cutting ties. Now I feel torn between protecting my peace and reinforcing her narrative that I'm the selfish one. Am I the a-hole for choosing mental health over tradition?
Speaker 1:You know, what's really interesting is that it's even framed as I have to choose between sort of my mental health and my family, because we see this a lot in these scenarios. Right, where is it like? Am I selfish for prioritizing my needs over someone else's and we end up having that boundaries conversation a lot. So clearly this is a perfect opportunity for a boundaries conversation. But I think even more sort of interesting is that identifying that toxic dynamic and recognizing that part of the toxicity is I make you feel like you're the problem all the time.
Speaker 1:I tell you that you're being selfish when you tell me, no, there's this clear lack of boundaries. They already said it, there's a toxic family dynamic. You're usually going to see very, very poor boundaries from the toxic people who then project and then say you're being selfish. I always find it so fascinating when it's like I selfishly want you here, but I'm gonna call you selfish for not wanting to be here there's this like hypocrisy always double standard at play always, and I, and, and, and the fact that they're even questioning am I being selfish?
Speaker 1:you can see how often they have probably been told. Anytime they have a differing opinion, a different want, a different need than that family dynamic, then they are being selfish.
Speaker 2:Right, and I think that comes back to like the piece around tradition, you know, and I think that sometimes we have to ask ourselves, like who is this tradition serving right? Who is it serving when it comes to the needs that are at play? And does this tradition, when it was implemented, when it was started, take into consideration an individual's needs or their mental health needs? And sometimes we need to update that and recognize that the tradition as it is, as a standalone, might not be serving my mental health needs the way that it perhaps served others. And I think that's a big part of the conversation is realizing that, as traditional as it might be, I need to be able to have a conversation around the impact that this tradition is having on me, and maybe we can redesign what that tradition looks like or rearrange things a little bit so that it fits my needs at the same time, because otherwise I'm going to constantly feel as if I am the selfish one, because if this tradition continues to be at play and my mental health needs are also a priority for me, there's always going to be a clash and a disconnect at some point in time, and so at some point there needs to be a conversation around the tradition and if this tradition serves the same purpose that it perhaps served our predecessors or those who came before us.
Speaker 2:And I think that's sometimes. The challenge that we find with tradition is that what once worked may not necessarily work over time, and is there a room for some flexibility around what that tradition looks like nowadays?
Speaker 1:You see it all the time time. A very common thing we do see is as the children age, they have their own families and so they have their children, in the sense of they have their own families, but they have this partner who has their own family as well, and you see a lot of conflict arise because both original families want to keep and hold their traditions, but then they can be in direct conflict with the other family's traditions and I've seen such. That creates so much stress around the holidays. I've seen people try to, and now you start thinking about blended families. I've seen people do two, three, four Christmases in one day. I've seen people having to travel all around, sleep over somewhere else for Christmas morning, even though maybe they want to do Christmas morning in their own. Personally, I see a lot of it around Christmas. That's just my what I'm. Yeah, the people that I know are celebrating, right, but it's a lot around Christmas and there isn't this understanding of like. Actually we need to create new traditions Now. When we bring somebody into our family, it's actually really important that the original family step back and go. How do we work our traditions around, the traditions of the new family?
Speaker 1:We've made a solemn vow to our children All we care about around the holidays is that all of us can be together. And again, we're not gonna be mad if that can't happen for kids. So you know what I mean. But so that could be anywhere around the holiday season, right? Does that be Christmas Day? I could not care less. I could not care less Because, first of all, I find the holidays really, really stressful and I don't want my kids to find it stressful. I want them to enjoy the holiday. I want kids to find it stressful. I want them to enjoy the holiday. I want them to want to come, I want them to have a great time, I want their partners to want to come, and I think the best way to do that is not to get to be a stickler around which day of the week it happens.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and that's that's exactly it, right? How do we become, or how do we show more flexibility towards the traditions that are at play? Again, they have to look different as the dynamics shift, as the relationships shift, as the families grow, and that's, I think, an important piece where, in this person's case, it's choosing mental health over tradition which is important. Yeah, I think it's an important one, for sure.
Speaker 1:All right, last one, cool, yeah, okay. Am I the a-hole for leaving a party without saying goodbye because it was too much? I, 26 year old male, am autistic and sometimes get overwhelmed by noise, lights and crowds. I went to a big birthday party for a close friend and after an hour I hit a wall. Instead of saying goodbye to 30 people in a loud room, I just texted her and left. She later said it hurt her feelings and made her feel disrespected. I get it, but staying would have meant a meltdown. Am I the a-hole for leaving quietly instead of pushing through?
Speaker 2:Isn't there a?
Speaker 1:name for that. I forget what it's called oh like the wall?
Speaker 2:No, like the type of leaving. Oh, yes, it's an Irish goodbye. Irish goodbye, I am Irish.
Speaker 1:I never do an Irish goodbye, but yes, it's an Irish goodbye. I'm notorious for Irish goodbyes. That's my thing. That does not surprise me at all.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you, that does not surprise me. I'm like I can relate to this. Yeah, A lot.
Speaker 1:So what would you do if someone was like you, hurt my feelings and I'm upset with you now for the Irish goodbye.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think ultimately, just like this person, I would let them know that it was a lot. It was a lot going on. I didn't want to pull you away from everybody. I wanted you to show that you're having fun. I didn't want you to pull the tension towards me, like I would kind of turn it back and allow them to rest. The intention wasn't to be hurtful or to be disrespectful, but more so because I didn't want to take away from what was happening. I don't want it to be about me now, because I'm leaving and because of how overwhelmed I feel by this.
Speaker 1:Like, let's not make this about me, I'm leaving and now having a meltdown, so it's definitely going to be about me in that moment.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't want that. So I think, ultimately, I would explain to them like I want you to enjoy your night. I want you to continue enjoying it. I don't want you to be worried about me or to put the attention on me. Just enjoy it and we'll talk later, kind of thing. So I mean, I think that, similar to the other post, it's like it's the idea of prioritizing your mental health yeah, right, and it's like the the goal in this case is that you still showed up, you were still present, but what are your needs? Yeah, and how do you ensure that, in the midst of showing up for your friend, your needs are also still being met at the same time, versus having to sacrifice and push through, because what would happen if you tried saying a goodbye to a room full of 30 people while having a meltdown? Yeah, like that's not. That would be challenging on many levels yeah, like that's not.
Speaker 1:That would be challenging on many levels. I'd also be curious where it's like. If you're my friend, you should know this about me, right? That these things are overwhelming for me, yeah, and that I'm even here shows you how much I respect you, exactly like.
Speaker 1:Let's appreciate that about you. So I'm kind of confused by that a little. Yeah, but didn't make me think. I had a friend who always did the irish. We just knew this about her. She always there was only one downside. And for all those who do it I don't think you would ever do this, but for all those who do it, if you guys arrive together and there was alcohol involved and you're female, well, any gender if we're worried you've been abducted.
Speaker 1:Let us know that you've left enough that we're not like where did they go, where it did something bad happen to them. But outside of that, I absolutely respect I personally respect the irish goodbye. I totally get why, first of all, goodbyes can be awkward. Um goodbyes can take forever. Oh yeah, I also wonder a lot if this person was worried that they were going to be like oh no, don't leave just stay around a little bit longer, wait till we get the pressure the situation, which again valid to not want to actually put yourself through that right um, but I am curious in that just sense of like I'll come back to boundaries and communication but why didn't we have that conversation to begin with?
Speaker 1:you know these types of things, they freak me out. Sometimes I can have meltdowns, this can happen. So if I start feeling a certain way, I will just leave and but I'll text you and let you know and wish you all the best, yeah, and have that conversation. If that conversation doesn't feel safe in a friendship, I don't know that I would stay in that friendship you want to question that a bit, yeah, yeah, if you're like no, you can't leave that will make me feel disrespected and upset I'd be like sorry, I can't come.
Speaker 2:Then I don't know that I want to be friends with you anymore then that's a good point, and I think, if the friendship is what it is, they know what these experiences and these environments are like for you. Yeah, you know. So they shouldn't catch them by surprise. It's like, okay, yeah, I get that. I get that you have to leave, I get that it's overwhelming and we'll talk later. But I think there's definitely a need for communication, either before or even at some point after leaving. Just send a text or whatever the case is.
Speaker 1:But you know I just thought of too, though, is that, when it comes to symptoms of any kind of diagnosis, what can be confusing for the person and the people around them is sometimes I feel this way and sometimes I don't.
Speaker 2:And that's when you can see people personalize it.
Speaker 1:Oh, you were at Judy's birthday party and you stayed till the end and there was even more people there and it's like, yeah, but there is actually more complicated than that. There could be a lot of variables involved at that time that gave them the capacity to do that and they no longer have the capacity to do that, and I think that that's something that, again, I don't know if I'm just well.
Speaker 1:I mean, I guess we're empathetic people because this is what we do for a living, but I'm just like when I read these things, I'm like where is this lack of empathy of putting yourself in the other people's shoes? Would you risk a meltdown to to stay at a party because you don't, would you? Would you do that for your friend or do? Or can you not relate to that concept of risking this meltdown that they described right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's a key thing in friendships. It's perception of interpretation of actions. Yeah, when they do certain things, how do I interpret that? How do I perceive that?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And with a lot of these readers or posters, it's there's a lot of personalization that's happening and I think it's. You know that's challenging, because not everything that your friend does is because of you or to hurt you or to be disrespectful towards you. We have to start asking ourselves more often like what other ways are there of looking at this situation? What other factors could be at play, what other things could have influenced their decision to leave? And without that, it's going to be very challenging when we're always in a state of like personalization. You know that's going to be. I think that's a key thing here. When it comes to friendships, it's challenging moments of personalization and asking ourselves what other perceptions there are that we can use in these situations, what other perceptions there are that we can use in these situations.
Speaker 1:I even wondered too about this whole idea where you felt disrespected. Fair that doesn't mean I was disrespectful.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right. I think that sometimes people also mix those concepts together, where it's like, just because you made me feel a certain way means that you're in the wrong. Yeah, it's like actually actually. No, I can feel lots of different feelings that I have to own and take responsibility for. What narrative? What did I say to myself about what your behavior meant? Um, that led me to feel disrespected doesn't actually mean that was the intention.
Speaker 2:The intention yeah, yeah, I think that's key all right, yeah, we did our.
Speaker 1:We did our. Am I the a-hole pose for the?
Speaker 2:yes, and so if you are listening and you have a scenario or a situation that you are questioning whether you are the a-hole about, please feel free to email us your scenarios at media, at the mind spaca, we'll love to give you our take on it. So that's it for today, folks. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you on the next podcast episode.
