The MindSpa Podcast
The MindSpa Podcast is your go-to space for meaningful conversations around mental health, healing, and personal growth. Hosted by Michelle Massunken RSW and Tina Wilston RP, co-founders of MindSpa Mental Health Centre, each episode explores key mental health topics through expert interviews and thoughtful roundtable discussions.
From managing stress and building stronger relationships to navigating invisible challenges, the MindSpa Podcast offers grounded, professional insights in a warm and accessible way. Tune in weekly for supportive, real-world conversations to help you feel seen, supported, and empowered on your wellness journey.
The MindSpa Podcast
Ep 20 Rewiring Habits: How To Work With Your Brain, Not Against It
If you’ve ever asked yourself, “Why do I know what to do but still not do it?” this conversation will feel like a light turning on. We sit down with habit change expert Katie Faloon Drew—speaker, coach, and health psychology pro—to unpack the real reason behaviour change stalls and how to build routines that survive stress, travel, and busy seasons.
Katie breaks down the brain’s two big priorities—safety and sameness—and shows how they quietly drive procrastination, all-or-nothing thinking, and guilt spirals. Instead of waiting for motivation, we design minimum viable actions that pass the “giggle test,” so small they feel safe and repeatable. From naming your brain to creating plan A and plan B, you’ll learn simple tools that keep you consistent without relying on willpower. We go deep on identity-based goals—“I’m someone who prioritizes my health”—and why they outperform weight-focused targets for long-term fitness, energy, and mental health.
We also explore the reticular activating system and confirmation bias, revealing how beliefs shape what you notice and the choices you make. Affirmations can work when paired with aligned action, turning thoughts into lived evidence that rewires confidence. Katie shares realistic habit timelines, why “21 days” is a myth, and how to protect momentum during setbacks by lowering the bar without lowering your standards. You’ll hear practical examples, from five-minute walks between meetings to reframing cake at a birthday party without shame.
Whether you’re building a workout routine, healing your relationship with food, or just want steadier energy, this episode gives you a blueprint rooted in neuroscience and compassion. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs a boost, and leave a review telling us the tiny step you’re taking today.
So, welcome back to the latest episode of the MindSpa podcast. We are speaking here to Katie Falloon Drew. As a leading habit change expert, sought-after speaker, bestselling author, and wellness coach, she helps people reduce, overwhelm, and build simple, sustainable habits that boost health, happiness, and authentic confidence. With a master's in health psychology, Katie understands that most people already know what they should be doing, but in the chaos of daily life, making it stick can be the hardest part. By blending science-backed habit change strategies, coaching techniques, and a deep understanding of mental health, she empowers individuals to shift their mindset, break free from all or nothing thinking, and create realistic habits that foster a healthier, happier, and more present life at any age, stage, or size. I love that. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here. It's great to be here. Yes. Please start out by just letting us know a bit about yourself, a bit of your background, and what brought you into what you're doing today. Sure. So when I say I'm habit change expert, people are like, what's weird?
SPEAKER_01:What is that? I've never heard of that. Yeah. Um, so I've always had a massive passion for promoting health, specifically physical activity, because in my own life I realized at a young age that it was a great way to manage my own anxiety and depression. Yeah. And so I just, you know, I did an undergrad in human kinetics. And then I was just always drawn to trying to convince my friends that going for the walk or the workout or doing the healthy thing wasn't just about like looking good. It was about feeling good. And so it led me to do a master's degree in health psychology, did research around how to promote healthy behavior. Right. And then I just kind of followed my passion. I mean, I did work in the government for a long time doing health policy. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:But just how did that transition happen?
SPEAKER_01:Just like, was that that sort of I got out of school, was looking for a job, I live in Ottawa, government is like I I'm very open about my mental health story and full burnout in my early 30s. I just got on the societal treadmill. Okay. It's like, what where's the secure job? Right. I think in my heart I always knew I wanted to be a coach, but at the time that there was no such thing. Like I, you know, they're like, what's a coach? Yeah. It's been pretty recent. I knew that I wanted to do something in terms of helping people change their health behavior. Yeah. But at the time, you know, I was 25 when I graduated from my master's degree. And I was like, well, government looks okay. And I get pushed a lot.
SPEAKER_00:When you live in Ottawa, it is kind of like the dream gets sold to you.
SPEAKER_01:And you know what I will say? It was amazing. There's so many people that have this negative connotation. I've never worked with more wonderful, driven, smart, amazing people. I got to work on the Canada's food guide for seven years. Wow. Working with the dietitians to help them translate what was in it to Canadians from a health behavior change perspective. Yeah. Got to speak at the White House when I worked on the opioid crisis for six years. I think everything I did in the government prepared me to be a better speaker, to be a better coach. Yeah. Uh, to understand um policy. So it was it was wonderful. But the pull, you know, the whisper became a scream, became a yell, became a it's time.
SPEAKER_00:Because it can't the the career in what you're really great at and what you want to do can be a bit limited as soon as you're not in private industry.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I ended my career in Health Canada um as the senior advisor for workplace wellness and mental health. Okay. So I was able to use, you know, a lot of my coaching and have a change expertise to bring in health professionals for workshops, but then create my own workshops on a healthy living. So that was great.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I think it was all stepping stones, but um I would I would imagine a very crucial piece to it's not just you can just tell people what they need to do in order to improve. So let's say it's a a doctor who's dealing with somebody who has, let's go with heart disease, and they're saying you need to eat less salt, you need to exercise more, you need to do all these things. That's the very first step, I think. And then I imagine not any of them are too trained in, but how do you actually work with that person to adopt those changes, especially when those changes can be very, very difficult, painful. Uh for some people, like even just affecting their food, right? If if they have to change their eating habits, that can be very, very difficult.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So overwhelming. And our brain doesn't like change. Our brain does not. And it also doesn't like to be uncomfortable. Right. And so here we are, you know, being overwhelmed, knowing what we should do. And that's that's literally what I work with people on, or what I do my keynotes on is how come we know and we just don't do it. And and if that's you, you're not alone. Yeah. It's your brain, not you. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, tell me more about that. Yeah. Let's speak directly to those people because I think anybody listening right now can relate to, I know what I should be doing. Why am I not doing it?
SPEAKER_01:So the short answer is you're likely not, you're likely working against your brain and not with it. Okay. So, and you would know a lot about how the brain works, right? And so our brain, we are, we have these reptilian brains that kept us alive in the cave. We're still dealing with this. I like to call it the software or the hardware, maybe the software, whatever it is. I like to separate our who I am, Katie. Yeah. I am not my brain. My brain is just the operating system. Right. And when I understand how the operating system works, how it's been programmed, then I then I can start to work with it and not against it and instead of against it. So our brain likes two things, like I said, it wants to keep us safe and comfortable. Yeah. So we don't want to get off the couch. Right. That is very safe, very comfortable. We're in the Cape, we're like, you know what? I'm gonna go for a run. Right. We wanted to conserve our energy. We wanted to stay warm. Yeah. So we're still dealing with the same reptilian brain in a very different society. So we have to understand that it is not willpower. Everyone thinks I'm waiting for motivation. Yeah. It's lack of, it's not lack of motivation. It's never lack of motivation. It's motivation. Never. Because you can't anyone who's waiting for motivation and will wait for the rest of their life. They will. It doesn't show up until after you've started. 100%. Yeah. And so number one, understand that you your brain is always going to try to keep you safe and comfortable. And secondly, which is a little bit more because that's that one's never going to change. Even if you develop habits, for example, to exercise, yeah, your brain's still going to come up with excuses. You still want to be comfortable. But on the other side, your brain likes to stay in homeostasis, right? And to stay in the same pattern. We see this on the one hand, for example, in addiction can be very detrimental, right? Um, but it's it's it's anything. If you've kind of gotten into the pattern of a certain mindset, it's not just physical, right? That's right. A negative mindset, you're in that pattern. You're in the pattern of gossiping, you're in the pattern of being sedentary, yeah. You're in the pattern of um being so, so busy. Yeah. Any pattern that you're in, your brain wants to stay in that pattern even if it's uncomfortable. So when I work with people and teaching them how to break patterns, they first have to understand that it's not their fault. Yeah. It's just the way their brain is working. Yeah. So how can we start hacking that? And that's that's the process. How do you hack it?
SPEAKER_00:Well, that and that's what's that's what's really interesting because when you take the first one, which is that your brain likes to be comfortable, a lot of people are gonna stop and go, no, no, but I'm very uncomfortable. I'm actually very uncomfortable. That doesn't make sense until you pair in that second piece, which is but if it's if it's keeping you not changing and the same, that actually it is more uncomfortable to change. Exactly. And so even if you're uncomfortable in what you're doing, it's still more uncomfortable to change it.
SPEAKER_01:And there's a saying, and I was running a workshop yesterday and I couldn't remember the saying, but it's something to the effect of your brain would rather stay in the comfortable hell than jump into the unknown. So, like that uncomfortable bliss. Like, because in order to change, it's scary. Yeah. And your brain doesn't understand what you're doing. Like it's like, no, no, no, we don't, what are you doing here? Right. I always I love giving this analogy and it usually works with people. So some people will hear the that that ner the neurons that fire together wire together. Yes. I mean, for some people, they're like, what are you talking about? But basically, like, what is the pattern that's happening in your brain? What's the cycle? When we want to create new habits, we actually have to like it's almost if you think of like physically, I like to think of it like physically kind of ripping off these patterns and creating new ones. It's like an actual new neurotransmitters, like new patterns that are happening in your brain. So I always say to my clients, think about you're riding a bike, like the neural pathway that you've created in your brain. Yeah, it's like it's so easy for your brain to take that. That's so it maybe it's a negative mindset, maybe it's being sedentary. Yeah. It's just a loop, it's automatic, and so you're subconscious. It's like riding a bike down a really nice paved path. The first few times, if you're trying to change a habit, you're trying to get off the couch and go for a walk, you're trying to, I don't know, stop yourself from gossiping, whatever it is, right? You kind of have to white knuckle that bike off that path. Right. And the first few times, you really have to be so conscious in like we're gonna take this path. Well, guess what? This path is uphill, bumpy, yeah, maybe a mountain biking path. So the first few times your brain is like, danger, danger, danger, danger. Give up. This is what stops us. Go back. Danger, danger, go back. We don't know this. We don't know how long it is. This looks hard. Do we have the right bike? Right. So the first if you understand that, then you know that the first few times is gonna be rough. However, the more times you can wrench that bike off the path, right? The path will get back down a bit more. Maybe you'll build a little bit more muscle, you'll know how long it took you. Maybe you upgraded your equipment, maybe you're feeling a little bit more positive. Is it ever going to be easier than going down the beautiful sunset paved one? Right. Now, yeah. For some habits, it will. This is if it's a mindset shift, a little bit different. Yeah. Physical change, like belief change. Yes. So sometimes you can actually rewire that path and it becomes very easy. So yeah, that would be more mindset, I'd say. Once you really ingrain things like working out, it's never gonna be easier to do that. Right. But it's going to get easier to convince your brain to do it. Right. So the first, you know, they say you can change a habit in 21 days, that's actually bull. Yeah. That's not people like, how long does it take? I'm like, it depends on the person, depends on the habit.
SPEAKER_00:I remember hearing once too, where it's like, if it's a habit that you just do twice a week, three times a week, versus a habit you do three times a day, that 21 days of of how many times you engage in said habit is so hugely different. It's so different. So that that number doesn't actually, there's no way you can actually say any, say a specific amount of time.
SPEAKER_01:I would say, based on coaching clients for years on habit change, a good rule of thumb is the first few weeks. So let's let's say 21 days is the sticky, sticky, messy hard part. Right. That is gonna be the hard part for a couple weeks, let's say. Yeah. Um, but it's not just fixed in 21 days. It's just that's that's like the that's the white knuckling part. Yeah. You then still need to be kind of rolling and on it. Yeah. For anywhere between two months, four months is what I've witnessed. But again, it depends on the habit. Right. Are you starting something or stopping something? So it really depends. It depends. So if we're talking like addiction, very difficult to stop. Okay. Um, depending on the addiction, right? So, like anything that's a chemical enslavement, right? So drugs, alcohol. I don't work, I'm not an addictions counselor. That's not the work I do. Starting a habit, it depends. Yeah. It depends on you, it depends on your belief system. Like it's for some people, I've seen them be able to pick up um walking habit quite easily. Okay. For other people, it is a huge, huge problem. That's where I love, and almost all my clients also have a therapist because they help to understand like why is it that this is such a sticking point? And often what we're seeing is well, I was told my whole life I was overweight. Okay. I've associated exercise with being thin. So they have these negative beliefs around it. So core beliefs are sticky. Core beliefs are sticky. Yeah. And so that's why there's no right one answer. Because one person might actually have a really nice belief system and they don't have these negative connotations with exercise, for example. Yeah. And they just need to get into the habit. That's going to be easier. Someone else might have some really deep core beliefs. Yeah. That they're they're they're we gotta dig a little deeper there.
SPEAKER_00:And for them, you'd recommend potentially therapy. A hundred percent. Because can I I want to go back a little bit because you said something and and I want to speak on a topic I see all the time in therapy, where people are making changes and they're it's going amazing and they're doing really well, and they're they're noticing mood improvement and all that. And then a big stressor happens, a job loss, a fight, a health, you name it, big stressor happens, and boom, they are right back to that old path that you were talking about. And one of the things that I that I try to remind people is that our we also like to conserve energy. And unfortunately, that old path takes a lot less energy than that new path takes. That's sort of how I've explained it to people. But would you agree, or is there more that you'd want to say on 100%?
SPEAKER_01:I would agree. And I would say that the game changer, at least if we think about physical health habits that I've found works with clients, is to always have a plan A and a plan B. Okay. So this maybe works a little bit less on mindset. It works a lot better on behavioral health habits and behaviors. Okay. Because we see this all the time. We you're rolling. I've seen this with countless clients. They're rolling. We got a good plan, we figured it out. They get sick, their kid gets sick. Yes. They go on vacation. Yeah. And I have like the panic phone call, right? Like, oh, my progress is lost. And then because of all or none thinking, which is one of the biggest barriers for people to maintain health habits, is they have this all and unthinking.
SPEAKER_00:Black and white, all or nothing.
SPEAKER_01:That's it. And so I always with my clients and and or anyone who I'm giving advice to is have your if we're if we're talking about healthy habits here, yeah. Have your plan A. But do you think that's in a perfect world? In a perfect world, yeah. There's a whole other conversation about how to build the plan A because people are also having way too high expectations or trying to change too much at once. So that's like we could part, like we could put a thing in that conversation. But let's say we come up with a really nice plan A. We habits are built this way, like up, not down, right? Not a New Year's resolution, everything at once. So yeah. But let's say we're get we get grooving, we start figuring out, we start, we start, we start small, which is what we need to do with habits, we build and we get to kind of a place of a nice plan A. Yeah. We are maybe walking three times a week, and we have to- Is that one you often start with? Yeah. Okay. For physical health. Yeah. It depends on what the client's looking for. I mean, I work on confidence too. Again, mindset versus physical. Right. But the physical health behaviors I notice, if you don't have the plan B, you're like you're screwed up, frankly. Like because there's gonna be a week where, for example, for women, usually there's one week out of the month that you can't hit your plan A. And so if you don't have a contingency plan, if you don't understand that and you talked with James Clear, so I'll say this. Really at the core, it's who do you need to become? Who are you becoming? If you want to maintain health habits, you need to become the person that prioritizes your health. That person can pivot when we are so stringent in our routines that the only way I'm gonna be healthy is if I hit the gym three times a week, is if I hit those walks. And if I don't do it, I'm a failure. It doesn't work in real life. Right. So we need to ebb and flow with life. So kind of proactively planning some guardrails. I like to call it like minimum viable actions, right? Okay. So for physical activity, for example, it would be, you know what, on weeks that I don't feel well, still going out for a five-minute walk is gonna be great. Or maybe I'm gonna give myself some grace, but I know that I'm going to uh take the stairs today and not the elevator. What that does is it keeps us in the cycle, it keeps our brain in the same cycle. Because our brain likes the same thing.
SPEAKER_00:I'm still being the same person. You're still being the same cycle. Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. So but I won't necessarily be going to the gym for two hours. 100%. So the bet so this is a probably a very long-winded roundabout answer that um I really love for people to step back and ask themselves, like, who do I want to be? Like, who is the person reaching my goals? I am someone who prioritizes my health. I am someone who 80% of the time eats healthfully. Right. I am someone who really wants to think positively. When we start to really be clear on who we want to become, and then we we take the the mindset shifts and the habits to become that person, when you have a bad week, it doesn't mean you're not that person. Right. You you're still the person that prioritized your health to the best of your ability this week. Yeah. It's not all or none. Yeah. So there's ways that we can actually build systems in for that. Okay. Um, but at the beginning, just a plan B, or do you do you do you make it bigger than that?
SPEAKER_00:Like it's a good idea. It depends on the habit. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So it depends on the habit. If a lot of my clients are looking at their physical health habits, okay. It's a little bit easier that way, right? Okay. Um, they can have flexible plan B with grace of knowing that this week was kind of a gong show, but I know that I did the best I could. And here's a couple little things I did. You know, I took a five-minute walk between meetings. I um took the stairs, and I'm proud of myself still, and I know I'm gonna get back to my plan A. A lot of it's mindset. Okay. Versus this is the goal. I didn't hit my goal. I'm a failure. This doesn't work. Right. Go back into the old pattern that your brain's gonna suck you back into very easily. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I have a question about whether or not, because again, something I see that can come up in therapy a lot is the problem of really rigid thinking. So there, I I find that there's almost like, I don't know if it's a person, I think there's a personality element to it. Um, I think there can there can also be a learned behavior piece to it of just that really rigid thinking. So if have you ever worked with clients that you feel like, ooh, I see a difference between maybe this client and and other clients where changing that mindset, they have very, very rigid. Cause I I think I thought of it with black and white thinking. Black and white thinking and rigid thinking tend to go hand in hand a lot. Yes. Um, and so how do you handle, how do you handle those like really rigid thinking people? Do you use different strategies?
SPEAKER_01:So it's the same, it's really helping them understand that that's not that's not gonna work. Like really, I mean, this is like at the end of the day, all or nothing, all or nothing thinking doesn't work. And I think the way that I I'm able to, especially with my one-on-one clients, because you have more time, right? To to do this, I really always bring them back to the core of how do you want to feel every day? Okay. So when I, you know, do a keynote or or a new client comes in, I ask people, what are your goals? A lot of people will say, My goal is to lose weight. It was a perfect example. Yeah. And the short answer to me, that what I if I could write a book tomorrow, it would be if you're trying to lose weight, stop, try to lose weight. Okay. If you're trying to lose weight, the goal cannot be to lose weight. Okay. It's shame-based, it's way, it's it's too far out. Your brain wants the quick wins now. Yeah. And so in order to lose weight, you've got to keep showing up a lot, right? Well, your brain doesn't want to do it. Yeah. And you're not giving it any any like value. Like it's it's if your goal is to lose weight, your brain isn't thinking it's uh succeeded every day. Right. Because you're sitting around waiting for this long-term metric that is takes quite a long time to get to.
SPEAKER_00:I can also see the the other issue with that. And and we see this all the time where it's like you have this goal. So it's say it's a number on the scale, it's 115 pounds, and then you're doing all the all the things and really slowly pressing it, but you're you're you're walking every day, you're lifting weights, you're eating well. But if your brain is always like, but I'm not there yet, yes, but I haven't achieved that goal yet, I stop doing all the things that were getting me towards that goal.
SPEAKER_01:Because as you well know, if you think of cognitive behavioral therapy, our our behaviors and actions are driven by our feelings, not our thoughts. Right. You can sit there and have all the willpower in the world. Yeah. If you don't attack your thought system and your belief system and understand how that is impacting how you feel, yeah, that you you've broken the cycle, you've gone straight to the action. Yeah. Because you think just by thinking, today I'm gonna work out. Yeah. I have so I want this bad. Okay. If you have, if you're full of shame, if you're if you think like I need to lose weight, well, that's shame. That's shame, right? Yeah. So all of a sudden, if you're sitting there on the couch and you're like, come on, Katie, get off the couch. You you're being lazy, you gotta lose weight. How do you feel in that moment? Right, not motivated. No, no, you feel like you feel less than you feel full of shame, the feeling drives the action. Right. That's where we're going wrong. So it's a it's it's it's tough to get people to buy into this. But when I work with people, I say, we need to figure out how to build your confidence and self-worth before.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_00:So someone not be contingent on your weight.
SPEAKER_01:So if you can, which is very sometimes it's hard to convince people, but when they buy into this, it changes their life. Okay. The person who understands that no, no, I'm I'm worthy. I am someone who is worth taking, you know, 10 minute a walk for. I am someone who can say no, create boundaries, give a few less Fs. I am someone who prioritizes my health because it gives me energy, because it makes me feel proud. And all of a sudden you flipped it to a more positive mindset. You're able to change your goals. So when I ask people what their health goals are and they say lose weight, I'm like, that's not a goal, that's a metric. Right. Um I'll say, How do you want to feel every day? And they'll say, Well, I actually just want to feel happy, I want to feel peaceful, I want to feel calm, I want to feel confident. I'm like, Great, that's your goal. So now let's go. Energetic is also huge. Energetic is a huge one. Most of my clients have that. So let's use that as an example. So if you come to me and say your your your goal is to lose weight, and we really work through it, and then I say, Why? And then you're like, Well, because I want to fit back into my clothes from like last year. And I was like, Okay, why? Well, because that makes me feel better. Why? And then they're like, Well, I guess because I just feel more attractive. Why? And then you get to the point where it's like, society told me in order to be enough, I need to be a certain size. Okay. Or I have put this pressure on myself, or my family has, you know?
SPEAKER_00:So pretty much it always drills down.
SPEAKER_01:It drills down to at the end of the day, why are you trying to lose weight? Because you want to feel like you're enough. Right. So, how do we reverse engineer that? Yeah first decide how you want to feel. I want to feel energetic, I want to feel confident, I want to feel proud, I want to feel alive. Now let's reverse engineer your thought patterns and habits. Yeah. I would ask someone if your goal is to lose weight and you only had 10 minutes to go for a walk, do you think you're gonna do it?
SPEAKER_00:No, because you're not gonna think you're gonna lose weight from a 10 minute weight.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. Yeah. If your goal now is to do whatever you can to the best of your ability today to feel more energy, would you go for a 10 minute walk? 100%. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So we gotta, we gotta change our goals. Absolutely. I feel like that's the same thing too, in the sense of you're at a birthday party and you actually don't want to be that person that's like, no cake for me.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um, but and and it's sort of the same thing. If you're thinking I want to lose weight, you're gonna say, I shouldn't have that piece of cake. And if I do, I'm a screw up and I've messed up. But if you're saying to yourself, I want to be healthy, I want to make good, healthy choices, I want to feel good in my body, I want to do all of these things, and I'm doing, I'm eating well the majority of the time. I'm exercising, I'm doing all these kinds of things. That piece of cake becomes like I can have it, I cannot have it. Do I feel like having it? Sure. Yeah. I don't want to have a little bit instead of a lot. Right. Is what you reserve. Or is it gonna mean I'm gonna go keep eating sugar all day because I opened the door with this cake and that type of stuff. So I can see how also getting out of that black and white thinking, that all or nothing, and focusing more on just generally being a healthy person is actually gonna make that cake not the issue.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and you probably see this a lot with your clients. What you resist persists. Yeah. And that's a perfect example of the feeling drives the action. So you've just told yourself, you've restricted yourself. I can't because I'm overweight. Right. How do you feel? Yeah. Well, not good. Not good. And what do you do when you don't feel good? Yeah. Emotionally. Yeah. Emotional eating. Yeah. Uh, sitting on the couch drinking wine. So we have to look at this cycle. Yeah. And we have to get at the cycle up in the thought patterns first. So, you know, do I believe in going and hiring a personal trainer? 100%. Like when people say, Oh, you're a wellness coach, are you gonna give me a workout plan? No. Right. I'm working on your psychological blocks as to why you're not sticking with your habits. Then if we figure out, you know, I'd like the extra support of getting a personal trainer or I'm gonna get a meal service, awesome. Okay. But what I want you to do is get out of the shame cycle. Right. Get out of the fear cycle, get out of your own way. Get out of your own way.
SPEAKER_00:And when you can learn how to do that, yeah, watch your life explode. Because one of the other things that we know with shame as well is it's also part of what's gonna feed that voice of, oh well, then if I'm gonna have that piece of cake, let's make it big. Because I'm gonna start tomorrow 100%. Everybody's tomorrow can get pushed for decades.
SPEAKER_01:Whereas when you I'm I'm a huge believer in the 80-20, like I am 80% healthy, 20% beer and nachos. Okay. That's just because I know for myself if I fully restrict it, doesn't work. Right. But because of that, maybe I'll have a couple nachos instead of a whole plate of nachos. Right. Maybe I'll have a taste of that cake because I love it and not binge eat it because I feel shame about myself. And then like see I'm a failure. The shame cycle is so huge, especially for women.
SPEAKER_00:Especially for women.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Because we've had so much, at least in my experience. Now, majority of my clients are women. I have some executive wellness coaching clients that are men, but um there's so much pressure on us societally in terms of how we look. Yeah. There's also I have a lot of clients who are moms, uh, and there's the guilt, the mom guilt, right? Well, I it's selfish if I prioritize myself. Yeah. And so it's all wrapped up in this cycle of shame. And shame is literally poison for action in our brain.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And and I actually think that even how shame shapes who I think I am. So if I believe that deep core belief piece of I am someone who has no willpower, I am someone who is lazy, I am someone, then actually what we don't understand is how we are now priming ourselves to actually make that come true, that self-fulfilling prophecy. I believe myself not worthy, so I'm gonna put myself in situations that reinforce I'm not worthy, such as sitting on the couch all day, binge eating on food that's gonna be.
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's our reticular activating system. Right. Right. So a lot of people are like, what's that? And it's the it's we have a bouncer in our brain that we're training with our thoughts and belief system that is siphoning out uh information and stimuli. I always say to people like when I give keynotes on this, you've ever have you ever wanted to buy a car and all of a sudden that's the only car you can see on the road? Right. Or like when I was having trouble having kids, why is everybody pregnant? Right. It's because that's what I'm thinking about. And so my brain, through confirmation bias, is going to go find ways to prove me right. Yeah. And so what a lot of the activities I do on mindset with clients is because I'm a coach, right? We take act, so I want them to have therapy because I want them to understand the why. Right. I want them to get into the core beliefs. Yeah. It's a beautiful combination because then they'll share with me what they've learned. And then when we create an action plan to move forward, sometimes, a lot of time, we're doing things like affirmations. Even though it sounds woo-woo, it's not.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:If you can, if your if your current thought pattern is, I can't stick with healthy habits, I hate working out, I'm so busy, I don't have time, yeah, your brain will literally find ways to prove that right. Yeah. To your point. Yeah. So you can actually proactively retrain your brain. I mean, you some people will call it manifesting. If you want to call it manifesting, call it manifesting. Right. Whatever you want. It's neural science. So if you, I actually have a lot of my clients taking five minutes in the morning, writing down things like, I'm so grateful that I love to move my body and that I'm. That I'm worthy and I feel worthy. And and you start training your brain, even at the beginning when it feels like you don't believe it, but you just start kind of reprogramming, reprogramming. I think the NLP does a lot, you know, people who are sort of NLP, but there's simple ways that you can do that, like five minutes a day. Yeah, that will start retraining the reticular activating system. And then you'll start noticing things differently. Right. You'll start putting yourself in different situations. Yeah. It it's, but it's gotta be such a holistic approach.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Cause I think people sometimes, and this is where I think um affirmations get a bad rap, is that if if someone doesn't understand that it's not just about saying it without, I don't know, just without feeling, without, without thinking, you just kind of recite it. I guess reciting it isn't what's gonna make the difference. But also there is a behavior element to it. You also have to have a plan for behaviors that actually are in alignment with said affirmation. Yes. Because I actually was listening to a podcast recently and they they they brought up research I actually hadn't heard of before. I'm gonna butcher the details because I'm always a big picture sort of rememberer. But basically at the end of the day, it was talking about how you can't just change your beliefs. You can't, and they use an example in research where they said this huge thing, this horrible thing will happen unless you can believe this thing. Can you believe it now? Because if not, a horrible thing is gonna happen. And they're like, but I can't.
SPEAKER_03:No.
SPEAKER_00:The best I can do is pretend and fake to like that I believe it, but I can't actually change my belief system. And so that that was really powerful, just in the sense when when we were talking earlier about that that core belief piece. If in my childhood, um, I was repeated, I'm not good enough, over and over again at school, through parents, through bullying, all that kind of stuff, just saying I'm good enough, I'm good enough, I'm good enough in the mirror is not the thing that's actually going to change it. But if you're working with a coach, you're working with a therapist, and you say, Well, what would I worth it look like? Well, it would be eating a healthy breakfast and it would be going for a walk. I can say, I'm worth it, eat the healthy breakfast, go for the walk.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. That's it. It's combining it with the action, and that's what I do with clients. So it's not just the and not all the clients are open. Like you really have to depend on the person, right? Yeah. Um what I see as a beautiful combination is if you start just doing some mindset work and and proactive affirmation to your point in feeling it, but then create the simple habits to get the pride. So let's say it's I I can stick with healthy habits. I I like moving, I I enjoy moving my body, it gives me energy. Okay, that's very simple. You so let's say you say that to yourself in the morning and you really feel it and you really believe it, but then we've created a doable action plan. Right. For example, we are not gonna do CrossFit three times a week that we thought we were gonna do. What we're gonna do is what I say when I say to clients are when you are stri first starting to change your habits, they have to pass the giggle test. So in the beginning of habit change, your brain is going to resist big time. Okay. So if you can't stick to it, it's not the right goal. Right. So, for example, if your goal is to work out more and you're you say, I'm gonna go to the gym three times a week, well, and it doesn't happen, that's not the right goal.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:You literally have to continue to pair back and pair back and pair back until you're consistently hitting it for a week or two. Right. Two weeks at least, usually is what I say. Okay. Then you can add. Why? Because you have to convince your brain that it's safe to do it, it's okay, and then you have to build the pride. Right. So if you can pair the affirmation with something that you is tangible that isn't necessarily easy, but you do it, you feel proud, yeah, and you're like, wow, maybe I wait, maybe I can be the person that sticks with the healthy habits. It's almost like, you know, getting into the I don't want to say vibration, people are gonna be like, oh my god, here she goes. But you know, getting into the mindset of it. Yeah. While also acting in a way that you can can you can hit it, you can, you can do it. The pride builds, the confidence builds, then and only then do we add on.
unknown:Interesting.
SPEAKER_00:I love that. That you know what that makes me think of is actually a lot of time in exposure therapy. So exposure therapy is something we always do if somebody's avoiding something. Yep. But if we make the exposure too big and you're not gonna do it, then we're actually all spinning our wheels. So we have to keep pairing back until we can find that one doable thing that you can do, moving yourself in that direction. But what this is, and and I imagine you might hit the same roadblock I sometimes do, or I'll have people who will say, but that's too small of a thing. That's not gonna make a big enough difference. And I said, I I agree. Usually our starting point is so small it's not gonna make a measurable difference in the goal. However, anything above this, you're not gonna do the best. Yeah, exactly. And it can be hard to get people to buy into, no, but that's not enough. Cause a lot of people are like, I want to be better yesterday. So I want to be fitter, more energy, working out more yesterday. I want to be have dealt with this trauma yesterday. Yes. And you're like, no, no, this is a process. It's not a destination. And I imagine yours is sort of similar. We're never working on some fixed destination goal. If anything, what we're trying to do is we're trying to understand the direction that we're going, put our feet in said direction and start moving in that direction, and then just keep moving for the rest of our lives. It's not this like point that we're trying to make.
SPEAKER_01:No, and I make a million dollars if I was like a weight loss coach, but I refuse. I refuse, right? Because what I'm teaching people to do is hack their brain and change, understand how habit change works so they can apply this to anything. So you're right. And unfortunately, people will can be impatient. I, through trial and error, have realized that I will not coach anyone less than three months. Okay. Because you need three months, because the first month is very frustrating. Right. It's frustrating because it's sticky. Yeah. And I talk to my clients like day pretty much every weekday between calls through an app because that is the sticky one. That's where you need the accountability. That's where you need that someone who's really cheering you on who you know you've got to answer to. Right. Because that's where your brain's really fighting. So you're right. I've had clients be like, but that's that's too small. I have the the most beautiful story. I had a client, just beautiful soul in her 70s, retired, massive anxiety and depression, late diagnosis of ADHD. A lot of my clients, women late diagnosis of ADHD. I have lots of thoughts on it. Uh no one listed a lot. Yeah. And so do I. She, her goal was to just be able to start walking for her health and energy. She couldn't do it, paralyzed, couldn't get her, like just couldn't get dressed, couldn't couldn't, couldn't start. So in the beginning, we had to come up with what is a realistic plan. So I taught her the neuroscience. I I convinced her that she's got to start small. And then she we she she came up with, because coaching is them coming up with it, not you. She said, you know what, I think it's realistic to do like a 15-minute walk every morning before breakfast. Okay. Well, that didn't, it didn't work. Okay. We actually ended up having to scale so far back that the goal was believe, I'm just thinking now, I think it was maybe three times a week, and she just had to get her shoes on and get outside the door. That's it. Yeah. It's almost like James Clear's book where you talk about driving to the gym, but you don't have to get there. Right. This is atomic habits.
SPEAKER_00:Anybody who has the best. Read the book. It's so good.
SPEAKER_01:It's very based on the science. So for her, she just her it was too high of a mountain for her brain to think of going for a 15-minute walk. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:You would find all the reasons now. Yep, find all the reasons. Stay safe. Yes.
SPEAKER_01:This is just not. As soon as it was so simple, it passed the giggle test of this is ridiculous. I can put my shoes on and step on my driveway. Well, you're already on the driveway. Okay. Now all of a sudden she's like, oh, I was already out, so I went for a walk. This woman in two months went from not getting out of the house to walking 45 minutes a day, joining knitting clubs, feeling so much more vibrant in her life because we had to figure out the blockage and we actually had to scale it back so far that it was laughable.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. For her to just gotta be laughable.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Cause then we had to switch, we had to flip the switch to convince her brain that it was safe and then slowly add. But for her, the the the ad actually wasn't slow. Once she flipped that switch, it was like right.
SPEAKER_00:Yep. And I think that that's such a powerful thing to just like focus on for a second, which is the the whole point of it being the giggle test is the is safety. Yes. If it feels laughable, that means it feels safe. If it feels too small and not worth it, that actually means it's safe. We just reword that's too small, is that's actually the perfect starting point. Yes. Because then, and like you said, and I think that that that might be what stops people as they go, well, if that's this, if that's so small, then we're gonna keep moving in this very small, and that's gonna take too long, but it actually doesn't need that. You just need there is a bit of a hump piece that you have to get over. And then once you get over that, it actually does become a lot easier.
SPEAKER_01:A great trick that I would love to share with practitioners as well is I have all my clients name their brain. Oh, okay. So all my clients have to name their brain. So my brain's name is Brandy. Brandy can be a little saucy. She likes to party, she loves some wine on a Friday night, she doesn't really want to get up. She's super fun. Um, because we've got to work with her, not against her. I get my clients to name their brain so that in the moment they can say, Okay, thank you, brain. I know that you're there. You're trying to keep me safe. Right. And I know the way you work. So thanks, Brandy. But I Katie's gonna take, don't worry, we're safe. Yeah. So exactly to your point, Brandy, my brain, Brandy, is trying to keep me safe. Now I understand that. So that so when when someone is coaching me on taking a small habit step, yeah, I'm like, oh, okay, that makes sense. Because we're just trying to convince Brandy this is safe.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Once we convince her it's safe, things can move so much faster. So it's when when clients and patients can understand this, maybe they're a little bit less resistant to it because all of a sudden you're like, well, we're working with the habit change science, we're working with neuroscience. Once you do this, I promise you, if you can really roll with this, yeah, your brain feels safer. You can add and stack, and things will become you actually exponentially. Some people I've seen, like this 70-year-old woman, in two months, she's working, walking 45 minutes a day. Like she's she's like, I don't need to anymore. I'm like, You've paid me for three months. She's like, let's go get on deal. I'm like, okay, you know, just because it's finding the switch, creating safety in your brain. And honestly, at the core, it's removing shame. We're so darn hard on ourselves. Yes. And our brain already doesn't want to change. And so we're so hard on ourselves and creating all these pressures on ourselves and thinking that we're not enough. And we have to do, and when we do that, we'll be happy. And when I lose the weight, I'm gonna be happy. Right.
SPEAKER_00:And when I get the job. Most people realize that's why they don't keep the weight off, is that they're not happy once the weight is gone. 100%.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. That's what happened to me. I had got it all. I had it all in my 33, full crap. Literally, the point at which I looked around in my life and I said, I have everything I ever wanted. Why am I miserable? So my system of creating daily goals and how you want to feel works with the science of habit change because today, what can I do to feel my most energetic, my most vibrant, my most proud? That looks different on a week where I have a sick kid at home and I'm really struggling with something than it does when I'm in, like, you know, the first month of my life, the first week of my life that I'm like, you know. So when we've created that goal and we look at it that way, we become the person that does what it takes to the best of our ability that day, versus being so stringent that this is the only plan to reach this external goal of weight. Right. That or pant size. Or pant size. Like, I get it. I think losing weight is is I would never say to someone, don't ever try to lose weight. Like, no, it's if that's your only goal, that's the problem. That's why it's not happening.
SPEAKER_00:So how it's nice if it would just be an after-effect of the other goals.
SPEAKER_01:Like, yeah, if you you will if you keep showing up, yeah. But in order to get there, you have to become a new person. It just to keep it off. Otherwise, you're gonna keep yo-yoing and yo-yoing. So it who is the person who is continue who who maintains uh um, let's say who's who's the fit person. The fit person can has to continue to show up. Right. You don't just stop when you've hit the goal. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:So you do have to change who you are.
SPEAKER_01:You have to change who you are. Yeah. You don't and so that's why this shame-based, outcome-based goal doesn't work for maintenance of healthy behavior. Right. It only becomes a goalpost that is filled, again, filled with negative feeling, which goes directly against the science of how are you gonna convince your brain to show up.
SPEAKER_00:I feel like it also explains why people are so focused on it being solved now because it's shame-based. It's like that shame is so uncomfortable. Maybe I'll get rid of that shame once I'm 115 pounds or whatever it is. Yeah. And so interestingly, no, no, that won't work.
SPEAKER_01:You will not get rid of the shame by I will say the clients like so you want to lose 20 pounds and you think you're gonna be happy when yes. And it's like, why? And then but when you ask them the question, you don't tell them, right? Yeah, most people realize like the the goalpost is gonna keep moving. Yeah, so how can we grow? That's why I call myself a wellness coach and a confidence coach, because it's all together. Yeah. Like when you grow the confidence now, now and you you grow this authentic confidence in who you are, of course, wanting to grow and wanting to maybe feel a bit fitter and maybe like run that marathon or do that thing. Yeah, you just feel better. When you feel better, you can take the action that's maybe a little bit harder to do that takes more energy. So we actually have to work on feeling a little bit better. Not let's not toxic positivity. Yeah. But when so that's where it's a lot of mindset and confidence coaching before you can get to a place that you keep showing up for yourself because you're worthy to be shown up for. Right.
SPEAKER_00:That brings me back to also that whole piece of like what we've always been doing is always gonna take less energy. And so if we don't have, if we don't start with confidence, that gives the energy to make the change. Yes. But we're not gonna feel it if we're stuck in that, in that sort of old habits, old mindsets, old behavioral patterns. Yes, not gonna have the energy that goes into.
SPEAKER_01:And when you said, can you change your core beliefs? I mean, in my experience, can you change the patterning? No. Can you change have I seen people change their belief about themselves? A thousand percent. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:But always through action, right? That was the that was what the research was basically saying is like the way people change is through lived experience and therefore action. Because like if you actually do look at people who have changed their core beliefs, there has been, I remember them talking about, I think they were talking about people who believe that the earth is flat. And they're like one of the barriers actually is if we could put them in a rocket ship and send them into space so that they could see it for themselves, they would be believers after that. But because we're actually in a world where that's not possible right now, they can convince themselves about, oh, that was a lie and that was pretend and that's fake and all that kind of stuff. But if you show them with their own two eyes, and that's where it's sort of like if I need to show myself with my own two eyes that I'm a healthy person, I have to it witness and experience myself at the gym or or going for a walk or doing those things, or I'm not gonna change that core belief.
SPEAKER_01:But doing it in a way that you know that you're gonna do it. Yeah. Because unfortunately, it's the all-in-one thinking. It's this concept that in order to be a healthy person, I have to what, work out like I did when I was 30, look like I did when I was 30. Right. That's that's what we try to get at. Right. It's changing the changing. I have an expectation exercise that I get my clients to do a lot. I say, at least for me, I believe that anxiety and stress lives between our expectations and reality. And so what's easier to change? Our reality or our expectations. Right. And that's not lowering our standards. It's if you can never reach your own expectation, do we need to look at your expectations? Right. For example, I had a clientism. Yeah, perfectly. I had a client from the States, um, and she was 39, and her expectation of herself was to have a flat stomach. After some coaching, I asked her the question When did you have a flat stomach? Never in her entire life. Right. Now she's a mom of th of two, like 39 years old. Right. And her expectation is to have a flat stomach. Right. And so I don't say anything, I just ask her questions. Yeah. So, okay, why do you think this is why is this your expectation? Yeah. Well, because that's what it is, that's what the other women look like at the country club. Do you okay? And then you ask, ask, ask, and then finally she's like, oh, maybe this is an unrealistic expectation. Maybe that's why I have been feeling so much shame and lack and not enoughness because my expectation is not realistic right now in my life. And so we actually worked on her expectations. Yeah. And changed it instead of a physical expectation, it was an how do I want to feel? Yeah. That's what changed everything for her.
SPEAKER_00:That makes me think of how people, when they think of expectations and lowering them, they the people just equate that to that's a bad thing. It's just, it's a bad thing to lower your expectations. But and I have I have a lot of passion about expectations as well, because I think disappointment, I say to my clients all the time, expectation minus reality often equals disappointment. And if it does, we actually need to look at our expectations. Yeah. Because why aren't your expectations in alignment with reality? Yes. And usually in perfectionism, or I've been told or I've been taught that this is where my expectations should be. And I was listening to it in regarding relationships, where right now in society, we tend to put a lot of pressure on our main relationship to meet all of our needs. And if our expectation is you, one human can meet all of my needs. And if you don't, then I'm disappointed. Yes. And I had this thought that I was like, I am I can say with absolute certainty I'm 100% satisfied in my relationship because my expectation is that he's not perfect. Yes. And so because if something happens, I'm like, he's not, I'm not perfect. I don't want him to want me to be perfect. And so nothing's my expectations are in alignment with who he is, how he is, and all that. So I'm perfectly satisfied. And I think they're, I think to your point, is that it my goals at my expectations of myself need to be in alignment with reality, or I will be constantly dissatisfied with the outcome.
SPEAKER_01:So we need to flip that on ourselves. We're the hardest on ourselves. Yeah. As I'm sure you've seen in your clients all the time. Yeah. We have to look at what are our expectations on ourselves.
unknown:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:On our body size, on the way we look, on the way we're aging, on the way we're momming, on the way in our career. And if the expectations are so high that we feel crappy all the time, our feeling drives our actions. Right. Back to the cycle. Yeah. We have on the couch eating out of a tub of ice cream. 100%. And then we wonder why we had all the best intentions. We bought the gym membership, we bought the Peloton bike, we bought the workout clothes, and we're not showing up. Yeah. We're not looking at it from the right angle. That's amazing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I love it. Well, thank you so much for being here today. This is a fantastic conversation. I think so many people are going to love listening to it. Habits at the end of the day, I remember for many years I've I've thought change is actually the difficulty of change is actually at the core in therapy. If you're ever feeling stuck or the therapist is feeling stuck or clients ever feeling stuff, it's usually actually going to be found in where they're at in that readiness for change. And our goal always as coaches, as therapists, is how do we help that person get from into change, being able to change? Because change is hard. Our brain doesn't want it. It's going to work against us every time.
SPEAKER_01:So name your brain. Yeah. Understand that it's you, not against it, but working with it. Right. Remove the shame from it. Yeah. And then create small, simple, realistic baby steps, understanding that, yeah, it's frustrating maybe not to be able to change overnight, but you're working with it, not against it. Right. And then that's that's what's gonna create the lasting habits because you keep building.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Thank you so much. Awesome.
SPEAKER_00:So that wraps up today's episode of the MindSpa podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. And please remember to reach out to us at media at the mindspa.ca. I hope you enjoyed the episode.
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