Ep 23 Part 1 - Compassionate Family Law That Puts People First

Divorce doesn’t have to be a zero-sum brawl. We sit down with Jennifer Reynolds, lawyer, mediator, and founder of Fresh Legal, to unpack a trauma-informed, people-first approach to separation that lowers conflict, saves money, and leads to agreements that actually stick. Jennifer explains why court was built for contracts, not co-parenting, and how choosing mediation or collaborative law can preserve control, dignity, and long-term family stability.

We walk through the real process from first meeting to final agreement: understanding rights and obligations, collecting financial disclosure, and deciding who should make the decisions—you, a mediator-assisted negotiation, an arbitrator, or a judge. Jennifer illustrates how independent legal advice functions like a house inspection: you still choose your path, but with eyes open to the risks, costs, and likely legal outcomes. She shares candid insights on timelines, delays, and why “it depends” is the most honest answer to questions about cost and duration. You’ll learn why 95% of family cases settle before trial, and what that means for protecting your energy, finances, and co-parenting relationship.

The conversation also tackles misconceptions that keep people stuck, like “talking to a lawyer means a fight” or “TV pace equals real life.” We explore how trauma-informed practice meets clients where they are—acknowledging grief, fear, and cognitive load—so they can disclose, decide, and move forward. By reframing rigid demands into underlying needs, couples craft parenting plans and financial solutions that feel fair and are easier to follow. And yes, sometimes mediation opens space for genuine repair, even reconciliation.

If you’re navigating separation or supporting someone who is, this guide to mediation, collaborative divorce, arbitration, and court will help you choose a process aligned with your values and goals. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs clarity, and leave a review telling us which insight changed how you see family law.

Chapters

• 0:00 Tempo: 120.0

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:04

Hey, on today's episode, we have Jennifer M. Reynolds. She's a lawyer and a mediator and founder of Fresh Legal, a boutique legal practice in Ottawa focused on family law, separation and divorce, and out-of-court resolution. With over a decade of experience, she guides clients through difficult transitions with compassion, clarity, and practical solutions. She is trained in both litigation and alternative dispute resolution, including collaborative law and mediation, and serves clients across Ontario. Welcome.

SPEAKER_00: 0:34

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 0:35

It's very good to be here.

SPEAKER_00: 0:37

Thank you for having me. I look forward to chatting.

SPEAKER_02: 0:39

Yes. So this is a hot topic. We see it a lot in our work, and obviously you see it in your work as well, too. And I think this is one that's going to be very important for a lot of individuals that are listening today. So we pulled a couple stats. Want to hear your thoughts on these. So we know that from Stats Canada that 50% of marriages in Canada end in separation or divorce, highlighting the revel the relevance of compassionate family law support. Couples who engage in collaborative divorce reach a full settlement agreement, and over 70% complete the process in less than six months, which often results in more durable and satisfying outcomes compared to traditional litigation. Mediation and collaborative law reduce legal costs by 30 to 50% and result in higher client satisfaction compared to traditional litigation. And trauma-informed legal practices improve outcomes for clients and reduce post-separation conflict by up to 40%. That's huge. So maybe we can talk a little bit about that and sort of transition into how Fresh Legal looks at that, right? That your law firm, how they look at trauma-informed practice and how that shows up in the work that you do with clients.

SPEAKER_03: 1:56

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:57

So absolutely, because all of our clients have been through trauma, right? Some of them have been through different trauma or what you might think of more classically as trauma if they were involved in family violence or something like that. But a separation of any sort, even at its best, and where you're really amicable and you're getting along, there still is some trauma involved in that.

SPEAKER_01: 2:21

And grief.

SPEAKER_00: 2:22

Yeah, absolutely. All of our clients are grieving, right? Even if it's something that they wanted, they're grieving what they've lost and what they thought they were going to have, even if they're excited about the next thing that they're going to be doing. So understanding that that is the experience our clients are having, and meeting our clients where they are at and seeing them for who they are and letting them be who they are and address whatever the conflict is in the way that they want and need to is really important so that they're empowered. The empowerment piece is really important for us. Um, and then trauma like family violence can lead to people processing information differently, presenting themselves differently, being able to, you know, deal with something like financial disclosure, right? I need your last three pay stubs and your three years of income taxes to one person is not a problem. But somebody who's been through really significant trauma is not able to handle that in the same way.

SPEAKER_03: 3:31

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 3:32

Right. So recognizing that a client might repeat the same story again and again, or ask the same question again and again, or not be able to complete what we think is a simple task might be coming from um the experiences that they've had. Um so trying to meet them where they're at in that way as well.

SPEAKER_01: 3:53

That's amazing that you take that uh approach because I think I would think that a lot of people who are educated in law, all that piece would be missing in their practice. And it would be very like, you know, this is very this is what we do, and then maybe potentially frustration towards the client when they're not doing what you're asking them to do, not realizing the why of it. It's it is really, really important. Because one of the things that you said about Fresh Legal specifically before is how you wanted to sort of be different, um, create a really safe place for people, a very comfortable place, knowing that they're going through one of the hardest things they'll probably ever go through. And you guys want to help uh make it easier, as easy as a difficult thing can be. But can you tell us a little bit about like where that where that passion came from to have this like gentle process with people?

SPEAKER_00: 4:47

Well, some of it just comes from I think who I am as a person and who a lot of my team members are, all my team members are as people. Okay. Um we're we're caring people, we're people with um a lot of training and experience in caring professions before we came to do what we're doing. Um, we have some people who've come to law after different careers, their other experiences, right? Um and a lot of it just developed over time, along with my trauma-informed approach and the information that I have about trauma and how I interact with my clients has just developed over years of doing this work.

SPEAKER_03: 5:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 5:26

Right. When I first started working as a lawyer, right, every hammer, you know, I have a hammer, everything's a nail. Right. You come into my office, I am a lawyer, I start a court proceeding, I serve your spouse with a letter that says, I have been retained. Right. And seeing over years that that doesn't always lead to really great outcomes, right? If you have two people who are in conflict and you put them into a court system that was really designed for people fighting about um not deeply interpersonal relationships, right? People fighting over whether a bill had been paid or a kitchen renovation went wrong, right?

SPEAKER_01: 6:07

Or land.

SPEAKER_00: 6:08

Oh, yes, or land sales and purchases. You put them into that and say, Well, now you're fighting, and this is how we fight, right? Um, instead of putting them into a process where it's the two of you have an issue, or three or four of you have a problem, we're going to work together to solve it. Um, and recognizing that, you know, this client has been traumatized, and this is why they're acting the way they're acting. My recognition of that and my knowledge, and therefore my passion of how it should be addressed developed really over time and came from my own experience of watching clients come from trauma and be re-traumatized through the process through the process really needlessly.

SPEAKER_02: 6:55

And that kind of goes back to what you were saying in our prep time around like the collaborative law approach and how that makes a difference, right? When it's mediation and the collaborative law versus it going to court, how the gains are sustained differently. Absolutely. When there's more of a collaborative approach, maybe you can talk a bit more about that.

SPEAKER_01: 7:11

Yeah, I think like I'm just I just wanted to say like start from the very beginning for people listening that they can understand like the very at the very lowest end of law being engaged in in the divorce process all the way to the most um like the courts getting involved kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00: 7:32

All the way to the beginning of time.

SPEAKER_01: 7:33

No, no, sorry, but it's like some history but like a separation example.

SPEAKER_00: 7:40

Yeah, the process of the process, you know, from a client. It's okay. That's that's the very conversation I have with clients, right? Okay. We sit down and we talk about all their rights and obligations, okay, and at that first meeting, and they begin to realize what they can ask for and and what processes are available, and and but they still have this look in their eyes, like okay, so that's all the things we're gonna talk about. But how do I get from sitting here in your office having this conversation to having this what feels like a mythical unicorn separation agreement? Right. Right. How do I get to the outcome?

SPEAKER_01: 8:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 8:23

Right. The outcome ultimately is you know, where are your kids gonna live? How is the parenting schedule gonna work? How are decisions gonna get made? How is your property being divided? And are there ongoing financial obligations? And your court order or your agreement sets those things out, right? How they get from that first meeting to that makes all the difference. Okay, right. So it always starts with that first meeting, that first sit-down with a lawyer to say, what are my rights, what are my obligations, what's the playing field? Yeah, right. And then it is in all cases a process of finding and disclosing information.

SPEAKER_01: 9:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 9:06

Right. So we ask you for the data that we need to advise you, we ask your spouse for the data that we need to advise you and what you need to make an informed decision. Then it's either based on that we're negotiating with your spouse, or we are going to court and presenting that data to a judge and asking them to make a decision, or we're going to arbitration and asking an arbitrator, which is very similar, you've asked someone else to decide for you. Um, and then it's the implementation of essentially your decision or the decision of someone else that they are going to impose upon you because you have asked them to decide for you because you and your spouse aren't able to make that decision.

SPEAKER_01: 9:54

So if I understand correctly, for some people where it's really amicable and we actually agree about everything and it's going to be very straightforward, that would probably be the most inexpensive thing that could occur. But each people, each person should still have a lawyer, though. So is there any version where they just sort it out with no legal involved whatsoever?

SPEAKER_00: 10:16

Uh yes, it can happen. Okay. Um, I would be remiss to say that that's a necessarily a good idea. Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 10:25

But what could be taken advantage of in that?

SPEAKER_00: 10:28

Yeah, they they could be taken advantage of and not necessarily from a place of their spouse trying to or wanting to take advantage of them.

SPEAKER_03: 10:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 10:38

Um, but there can be situations in which you both have lawyers and it is still amicable. You're still working together, it's still cooperative, you still have between two lawyers. Not even. Okay. A lot of the clients that I now work with are going through mediation. Okay. So then that means that they work with me.

SPEAKER_03: 10:59

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 11:00

As a neutral professional. So I'm not a lawyer in that capacity. Okay. But I am using my legal experience to provide them with information and guidance, and I'm helping them problem solve. I'm helping them figure out what they need to talk about. Okay. So you need to figure out how your kids' expenses are going to be covered and how you're going to pay for daycare. And is there going to be child support paid? Right. And educating them about, well, you know, if you cannot decide and you ask someone to decide for you, this is what the law says that they'd impose and how they would make their decision. This is what your situation is. And what do you want your agreement to say? Right. So I am facilitating, they're both in the room, they're both empowered and part of the conversation. But then they also talk to lawyers for what we call independent legal advice.

SPEAKER_03: 11:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 11:56

And talking to a lawyer, so many of my clients, they're terrified, right? I say, Well, you should really talk to a lawyer. And they're like, no, no, no, no, no, no. We do not want to involve lawyers in this. And I spend a lot of time educating and saying, just because you're talking to a lawyer doesn't mean that you're fighting. Yeah. It just means you want someone who's in your corner who's looking out for you to make sure that you know what you've agreed to. Um, a client once likened it to getting a house inspection. You know, you're super excited about buying the house, right? And you've made the deal, and your realtor says we should really get a house inspection. And you're like, no, no, no, I love this house. I'm just gonna buy it. Right. And we anyone who owns a house has been through that, right? And they say, no, you should get an inspector, right? The house inspector comes and they warn you that you need a new roof and the plumbing over here, this is what's going on, or did you know that there's knob and tube? And some of it is you're learning something new you didn't know before, and then you're making an informed decision or negotiating a different price. Right. Right. Some of it you're like, yes, yes, I know. I know. I could see from the outside of the house what I was getting into, and and that's okay. And your realtor that doesn't then say, nope, don't buy the house. Right. There's all these problems. The realtor says, okay, here's what's going on. What do you want to do about it?

SPEAKER_03: 13:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 13:20

They're helping you make an informed decision. And that's what your lawyer is doing when you go to mediation or go through any sort of process where you're negotiating. Your lawyer is just being your person. They're in your corner and they're making sure that you know what you're getting into and what you're signing off on.

SPEAKER_02: 13:38

Do you find yeah, go ahead. Do you find that that the reluctance sometimes is dependent on who initiates the divorce or the separation, or do you find that both times you have to sort of explain the importance of getting that legal aspect, that legal piece, regardless of who's initiating it?

SPEAKER_00: 13:52

Yeah, really across the board, right? It comes, people are reluctant, usually no matter what. Um when they're in mediation and they're trying to stay out of court. The more conflict there is, I think, the more likely someone's going to say, Oh no, I need to talk to a lawyer. Yeah. Right. Because they associate lawyers with conflict. Right. So, oh we're already in conflict. So of course I bring in a lawyer because we're fighting.

SPEAKER_03: 14:16

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 14:17

The the hump to get over is we're not in conflict. Why do I need a lawyer? Yeah. We have the same thing with the prenup agreements. Well, we agree. We're getting married. Why do we need a lawyer? You need your person.

SPEAKER_01: 14:44

And so do you feel like um so you like when lawyers are involved? When I was, I guess I was kind of curious if you ever have lawyers get involved, and then as a mediator, you're like, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_02: 14:57

Like you're still in the picture while they have their independent counsel.

SPEAKER_00: 15:00

Yes, yeah, we're still in the picture. Uh sometimes the lawyers are in the room during mediation, or we do mediation with lawyers in one room and I'm talking to them, then they're going to talk to their clients. Yeah. We structure mediation differently, depending on what um the parties need. Yeah. Um, and sometimes the clients are going really far outside the box. Uh, the further you go outside the legal box, the more uncomfortable your lawyer's gonna be when you tell them what you're planning on doing. Um, and sometimes it means that I'm helping the lawyers understand, right? I'm saying, you know, they they they've worked really hard on this and they're aware of X and Y and Z. Um, and this is, you know, what I'm hearing from your client about why they want to do what they're doing.

SPEAKER_03: 15:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 15:50

Um lawyers are inherently risk averse. Okay. Right. Um, and so yeah, sometimes the lawyer, I look at them and think, what are you doing? And they look at me and think, what are you doing? Okay. And and at the end of the day, we're all on the client's side and trying to help them. Right. And then the lawyer and I need to understand each other, or maybe I'm the lawyer and I'm working with a mediator, or I'm working with a lawyer on the other side. Right. Right. And at the end of the day, if we're all committed to helping the clients get through this as essentially as unscathed as possible, um, it's important to have open communication with everybody involved and and honesty and trust. Um, that's one of the reasons why it's really great to work on the with a lawyer on the other side that you know that you're friends with, even.

SPEAKER_01: 16:42

And I think their heart, you know their values, you know, yeah, and I trust them.

SPEAKER_00: 16:46

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 16:46

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 16:47

So would you recommend, like during your mediations, would you give them recommendations of lawyers that they can get independent counsel from, or how does that work?

SPEAKER_00: 16:53

Yeah, we provide names of lawyers from time to time if they if the client expresses, you know, I just don't know who to talk to. Right. Um, so there's lawyers that we know and trust, and we'll provide them with names, and then I'm continually meeting more lawyers um as I go that I add to that list, right? Um, and so having lawyers that I know working when I'm the mediator, but having a lawyer when I'm opposing counsel, right? And my clients uh like they'll kind of be thrown off sometimes. Right. People like, well, why are you so nice to opposing counsel? Like, are they your friend? Is this bad for me? Like, are you gonna like is it are you somehow biased? Because and I'm like, no, like I I know them and I trust them, and they're a great lawyer, and they know what they're doing, and I know that I can work with them to get you the best outcome. So it's pretty much always a good thing.

SPEAKER_02: 17:41

Yeah, actually, it's always win-win.

unknown: 17:44

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01: 17:45

Yeah. I one of the things that I'm curious about, you you sort of described um so if it's not mediation, so let's say mediation is not working, what's the very next step after that?

SPEAKER_00: 18:00

Really, all of the dispute resolution is kind of leveling up the number of people in the room. Okay, in a way. And each step also removes sometimes the clients a little bit from the process too. So their control over the outcome. Yeah, they're their control over the process and the outcome. But if mediation isn't working with just the clients there, yeah, sometimes I'll suggest, you know, why don't we have another session? Bring your lawyers to that session.

SPEAKER_01: 18:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 18:30

Because if we add live legal advice, that might help. Okay. Right. If that doesn't work, maybe they're exploring um on one another end of the spectrum is is going to court.

SPEAKER_01: 18:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 18:43

Right. Or maybe you need the clients not to be in the room and the lawyers to negotiate with each other and then go back to their clients. Okay. Who needs to be in the room to get things done? Um, and then you move along the continuum of can you agree on the process but not agree on the outcome? Well, then maybe you can go to arbitration where you do have to agree on the decision maker and the process to be followed and kind of the rules of engagement, but you are asking someone else to make the decision and control just the outcome.

SPEAKER_01: 19:20

So that's one of the key differences between mediation and arbitration. Right.

SPEAKER_00: 19:24

Mediation is the mediator has no power to make a decision for you if you can't decide unless you've hired them to be a mediator arbitrator. Which does happen sometimes.

SPEAKER_03: 19:37

All right.

SPEAKER_00: 19:38

I work with an arbitrator where I am the mediator, and if things are not working and the clients opt to go to the next step of the process, they go to an arbitrator who has not heard anything that we've talked about. Okay. Um, and then at the very far end of the spectrum, if you're moving along and you can't agree not only on the outcome, but you can agree on process. Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 20:02

So the I don't want to do an arbitrator. I don't want to do a mediator.

SPEAKER_00: 20:07

Yeah. I've got to go to a structured process where not only is someone going to decide the outcome, but someone has already um predetermined the process that we go to. There, there's rules of engagement. You serve me with a document, I have so many days to respond to that. If we don't agree, we go to a judge. So these are the rules for what we can tell the judge and when we get to go to court and how many, even how many pages of evidence we can submit.

SPEAKER_03: 20:37

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00: 20:38

Like judge controls and the court process controls everything. So when you get to that level though, it's less collaborative. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: 20:45

So then the likelihood of sustaining whatever the judge rules becomes lower.

SPEAKER_00: 20:51

Yeah. Yeah. People are much more likely to follow their agreement long into the future and not ask for changes to the agreement if it's something that they um mediated, they did it through collaboration or negotiation, they put it together. It reflects truly what they want as opposed to I've given all of my judge, all of my evidence to a judge, and now the judge is making a decision. The other really important stat that not a lot of people know or consider is that about 95% of cases that go to court in family law never actually go to a trial. They settle outside of a trial, right up until the point that files sometimes settle the day before you start a trial or a few days into a trial. Why? Sometimes people run out of gas, they run out of money, they run out of energy. Fine, never mind, I don't want to go through with the stuff.

SPEAKER_03: 21:52

Let's just agree on something.

SPEAKER_00: 21:53

Let's just agree on something, or some piece of evidence comes up that wasn't shared before, right? All sorts of reasons. Okay. Um the important thing is that those two people have now been embroiled in conflict. If they're settling at the last second, they've probably been involved in the court process for two or more years. They are not in a good place to co-parent. They, if they didn't like each other when they started, they probably really, really despise each other now.

SPEAKER_01: 22:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 22:22

And they've burned through their emotional resources, their bandwidth, their desire to work with this person, the any relationship they had, and their a lot of their money. They've burned through time and emotions and energy, and now they're in a worse position. So if you think to yourself, inevitably most will settle.

SPEAKER_03: 22:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 22:46

My goal is always how many of those can we avoid putting in that process in the first place?

SPEAKER_02: 22:52

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Like if you know that at the end of it, this is what it's gonna feel like emotionally. Let's work towards doing this earlier on in the process, whether at mediation or arbitrary being able to get to that state a lot quicker versus the emotional toll that it takes when you get to that end state. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 23:08

And sometimes it's just they haven't talked to each other. Right? They haven't said what they want and what's important to them. And they're working from a place of fear and no one's asking them about their fears.

SPEAKER_01: 23:20

Right.

unknown: 23:20

Right?

SPEAKER_00: 23:20

They're saying, oh, you want primary parenting, you want to have the kids at least 70% of the time. Well, let's find all the evidence that supports the fact that you should be and they shouldn't be. Right. Instead of, oh, you would like to have the kids at least 70% of the time. Well, what is your greatest fear about what happens if you don't have that?

unknown: 23:40

Right?

SPEAKER_00: 23:41

Well, I'm afraid that the kids will feel this or feel that. I'm afraid that this is gonna happen. And then, well, how can we address those fears?

SPEAKER_01: 23:51

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 23:51

What do you what do you really need? And how can we make it happen? And how can we sit down with the other spouse and and communicate those things? Yeah. And learn those things.

unknown: 24:05

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 24:06

That's another thing. That's where that trauma-informed practice comes into play.

SPEAKER_01: 24:09

Yeah, exactly. One of the thoughts that came to my mind a curiosity of what you think, what you see in the world as some of the biggest misconceptions about divorce, separation, and the legal process. Because you must come across a lot of people with ideas that you're like, that is not how that works.

SPEAKER_00: 24:28

That actually doesn't happen in real life. Um, the first that I think of is always what I've already mentioned that people equate the legal process and lawyers to fighting. Okay. Right. So you you meet people on two sides of the spectrum, right? The people who who have gone to lawyers and are fighting, right? And the people who are like, we don't want to fight, and therefore we're never gonna talk to a lawyer, and I'm not even gonna know what my rights and obligations are, because I'd rather have no knowledge and not fight with my spouse than have the knowledge to make an informed decision. Because again, they're afraid of what people are like, I don't want to talk to a lawyer that's gonna cost a lot of money or that's gonna make a lot of conflict, right? So misconceptions around what it means in a divorce and separation to talk to a lawyer, um, and misconceptions about how long things are gonna take. Okay.

unknown: 25:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 25:18

And a lot of that comes from pop culture and what are they reading and seeing and watching, right? On TV, like somebody has a legal problem on TV from whether it's family law or criminal or a patent problem, and it is solved in a neat and tidy little 45 minutes, right? Well, we're gonna go to the judge, and in the next scene, they are in the judge's office. Um, first of all, I think I've stepped a foot in a judge's office, maybe once, right? The judges aren't back in their office with their their robes off and and meeting with you at the last second. Sometimes, yes. Okay. Um, but the vast majority of the time, before you talk to a judge who's empowered to make a decision for you, there is months or years of time that is passing. There is there are disclosure obligations where you're finding all the pieces of paper and they're finding all the pieces of paper. There can be questioning, which is like you're in front of a judge and answering questions under oath, but you're in a boardroom just with a couple of lawyers. There are negotiations, there are affidavits that take hours and days and weeks to prepare. There's waiting for an available court date in a system that is really strained for resources, right? So people don't necessarily understand that things aren't going to happen instantly. Okay. Um, and even if you're outside of the court system and you're saying, we just want to finish this as uh you know efficiently as possible, we'd like it to be done soon. At around this time of year, I'll get people saying, We'd really like to have this done before Christmas.

SPEAKER_01: 27:04

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 27:05

And I say, you know, it's not impossible.

SPEAKER_01: 27:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 27:08

But we're looking at how how fast can you gather information? How fast can your spouse? Do either of you have anything that's going to get in the way of that, from work obligations to trauma that's slowing you down and mental health issues? Are you simply dealing with getting a pension valued, which if it's provincial, they have up to 60 days to give you your report back? And then if you're coming to mediation, what's my availability, your spouse's availability, and your availability? And what day can all three of us be in one room that falls after we've gotten all that data? Right. So we certainly can and aim to move forward as efficiently as possible and uh for the start to finish to be not drawn out unnecessarily. Because that again re-traumatizes, right? But you always are just dealing with practicalities. Sometimes you're slowing one person down or you're speeding another person up, right? Um, and a misconception of like that there is a right, right? I'm right, and I'm gonna go to the judge and I'm gonna tell them that I'm right, and they are gonna tell my ex that I'm right, and they're wrong. But so often there is no clear black and white. That's why judges or not judges, lawyers always say, Well, it depends. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_01: 28:40

Which people love that answer. Oh, they do, everybody that I say that to, like, I just love that my lawyer told me it depends.

SPEAKER_00: 28:47

And I tell clients that they'll be like, Well, what will X, Y, Z? What will happen if? And I'll say, You're gonna hate this. But it depends. You know, how much is this gonna cost? It depends. Right. How much conflict is there? Yeah, how complicated are the issues? Yeah, um, how cooperative are the parties? Who are the lawyers involved? Are you in court? Are you in court in Ottawa or Perth or Toronto? What courthouse are you in? What's the availability of a court date? Yeah, it all depends. And we control what we can control. Yeah, we help our clients control what we they can control. We send them to experts to help them control the things that we can't help them with, right? Whether that's a financial expert or mental health support. Um, we do everything we can and we help our clients do what they can.

SPEAKER_01: 29:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 29:43

Um, but there is a spot at which our control stops.

unknown: 29:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 29:47

You talked about uh conflict quite a bit, right? And that comes up. And I'm guessing I'm curious to know what your, in your experience, what you have seen as to being one of the leading causes of separation and divorce from those that you've seen. Is it usually around conflict? Are there other things? Is there the sort of the spectrum? Does it depend? Um, and then also when it comes to the person who initiates it, right? Have you noticed some commonalities? With the initiator around separation and divorce. Maybe you can speak to that a bit.

SPEAKER_00: 30:17

Great question. Great question. Great question. Now I've got to think. In my experience, the the conflict and the breakdown and the future conflict too is assumptions and unmet expectations. Whatever it's around, whether the conflict ultimately or or starts with, you know, money or financial decisions or parenting decisions. They're often, it comes down to the ability of the parties to communicate with each other, the assumptions that they might make about the other person, about what the other person will do or won't do. And you know, whether you're the initiator or not. The initiator versus responder is more about the dynamic of who is ready for this conversation. Somebody who has already been to a lawyer, who's already made the decision to separate, who's already emotionally processed it, is going to their spouse and saying, I want a separation. And that spouse hasn't talked to a lawyer, hasn't gotten counseling around this issue, hasn't processed, hasn't they blindsided sometimes. Um sometimes they're not. Sometimes they're like, Yeah, I saw this coming, I just thought it wouldn't. Right.

unknown: 31:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 31:51

That's I would say that's pretty consistent with what we see as being the core reasons why. How often do you see them start separation and then actually decide to stay together? Because we always say separation slash divorce, which are obviously they are two. Some legally distinct things. Um, but I I guess I'm curious like how often you see people take those steps of like an official separation and then end up back together. Is that high, low?

SPEAKER_00: 32:18

Um I'm seeing it more now.

SPEAKER_01: 32:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 32:21

And hearing from colleagues more now, now that I'm doing um less high conflict work and and working in the mediation space. Working in a space that sometimes a mediation session is more like a therapy session than a problem solving session. Um so I've experienced it where I haven't before, and I'm hearing it from colleagues who do mediation. Like, yeah, we had a session and they said that, you know, we've never talked to each other like that before.

SPEAKER_01: 32:51

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 32:52

We've never had a conversation about that. Or we were able to work well so well together that now we want to give it another try another try. Yeah. So it does happen. Um, not super, super frequently. Um but it's on the rise. But it's on, well, I don't know if it's on the rise so much as I'm seeing it more because the work I'm doing is more um amenable to that happening. Right. Right. If you serve someone with a paper that says you shouldn't have time with our children because you're a terrible person because X, Y, Z, and also I want all your money, and also I never want to talk to you again. Um that doesn't really put them in a place that they're gonna end up getting back together. Right. But you put them in a room and say, What are you afraid of? Yeah. And the insight comes from that conversation. It's like, what are your goals? Yeah, what are your needs? It's a great therapy to opener. Yes, exactly. And just conversations they've never had before. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:53

That's it for today's episode of the Mindspot Podcast. If this conversation resonated, I'd love it if you would follow and share. It's a small thing that makes a big difference. The links to our podcast platform on Instagram and YouTube are in the show notes, and your support helps us reach more people and attract the voices you want to hear.