The MindSpa Podcast
The MindSpa Podcast is your go-to space for meaningful conversations around mental health, healing, and personal growth. Hosted by Michelle Massunken RSW and Tina Wilston RP, co-founders of MindSpa Mental Health Centre, each episode explores key mental health topics through expert interviews and thoughtful roundtable discussions.
From managing stress and building stronger relationships to navigating invisible challenges, the MindSpa Podcast offers grounded, professional insights in a warm and accessible way. Tune in weekly for supportive, real-world conversations to help you feel seen, supported, and empowered on your wellness journey.
The MindSpa Podcast
Ep 27 How High-Performing Couples Reconnect When The House Goes Quiet
When the house goes quiet, many successful couples discover a louder problem: they can run a company, but struggle to run their relationship. We sit down with registered psychotherapist, mental health speaker, and University of Ottawa professor Benslyne Avril to talk about why high-performing empty nesters feel like roommates and how a strategic, time-bound coaching model can help them reconnect without getting lost in years of backstory.
Benslyne explains the crucial differences between psychotherapy and coaching, and why some couples need the depth, safety, and trauma-informed pace of therapy while others thrive with clear milestones and direct accountability. We walk through her 90-day approach—starting with a relationship audit across emotional connection, family dynamics, intimacy, and individual interests—then mapping 30/60/90-day goals that create measurable change. Along the way, we unpack real frictions: power dynamics when one partner leads at work, the role shift when a stay-at-home parent loses their “team,” and what happens when both partners are high achievers with no shared north star.
We also explore modern curveballs that intensify midlife distance. AI advice can flatten nuance and fuel certainty that doesn’t fit a partner’s lived experience. Menopause can quietly shape libido, sleep, and mood, leading to misread signals and avoidable hurt. Attachment patterns still matter; avoidant or anxious tendencies can derail a beautiful plan unless the actions fit each person’s nervous system. Benslyne shares how to spot early warning signs—“roommate energy,” stalled conversation, dates that feel like interviews—and offers practical ways to protect connection long before the kids move out.
If you’re considering whether to choose therapy or coaching, this conversation helps you decide based on goals, readiness, and the kind of support that matches your season. Ready to design the next 15 to 20 years with intention instead of autopilot? Listen now, then subscribe, share with a friend who needs it, and leave a review with your top question for a 30/60/90-day relationship plan.
Okay, welcome back, listeners. Today we are talking to Bensolyn Avril. Uh, she is a registered psychotherapist, mental health speaker, and counseling professor at the University of Ottawa. She is also the founder of Therapy with Empathy, where she supports individuals, couples, and communities through a compassionate, culturally attuned, trauma-informed lens. Uh Benslin work site. Sorry. Benslin's work sits at the intersection of therapeutic practice, education, and advocacy. She is deeply committed to creating accessible, identity-affirming spaces for healing and is known for her ability to hold both empathy and accountability with warmth and clarity. Through her speaking, teaching, and clinical work, she equips people with tools to navigate relationships, emotional wellness, and life transitions with intention and resilience. Welcome. Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Hey, we're so excited to have you. Thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to our chat. Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Us too. Me too. So why don't you start off by just telling our listeners a little bit about you? I know we've just read your bio. Maybe break it down to us a little bit more and tell us about the work that you do with couples as well, especially high-performing couples.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So in the context of uh the work itself, um, a lot of my work in psychotherapy is really focused on interpersonal relationships. So even when I do see individuals, a lot of our discussion is around how to have healthy relationships. And that can be, you know, with family members. So there's a lot of family dynamic work that kind of falls into that as well. Um, and then with their friends, and oftentimes, or more often than that, with their partners. Um, so we discuss uh, they say some of the aspects that may have been challenging for them in previous relationships, how to make sure they don't show up, let's say, in a new relationship or relationship that they want to have for a longer term or a longer period of time. Um, and uh it's something that I've always been interested in ever since uh I was younger. I was always passionate and interested about how people form relationships and uh the parts of the brain that are kind of involved in the attachment process as well. So it's been it's been nice to now be in a position where I can include that a lot in my work.
SPEAKER_03:That's such a great thing to focus on. Cause if I think about how society has been evolving over time and I look at what is falling apart the most, it's actually relationship building on all levels. When you look at kids and their ability to form relationships in school, and then those early romantic relationships, and then those serious, committed they're broken at every every level, from what I can see right now. So this is needed more than ever.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, especially because we're not wired to live in silos, right? And so the importance of connection really comes out in the work that you do. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I've heard a lot, like, especially now, people are online, they're they kind of describe it as a loneliness epidemic, like especially with social media, well, now with AI. Um, that a lot of people are kind of feeling, you know, the impact of not having closed and close and meaningful relationships around them. And a lot of people are kind of going back into that to see, okay, well, how they can they reprioritize relationships again with people around them.
SPEAKER_02:Yes. Does that show up a lot in your work? Like the role that AI is playing in relationships?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so we'll see. Uh, well, I mean, I've had a few couple sessions where it comes up uh where one partner will be like, Well, I went on Chat GPT, and then this is what it says. So this is how you know it's gonna go in our relationship, and then the other person is like, Well, I actually don't feel that way. So now me and the session said something different. And then we're like, Okay, well, how do we kind of bring this together? Because as much as you know, AI is beneficial, it's also trained into to learn about whoever it is speaking to at that time. So whoever the main or the primary user is, it's kind of there for your benefits. And if you don't ask it to challenge you about some of the things that you're bringing to the thread, so it will just kind of give you what you want to hear. And then your partner's like, Oh, I don't agree with that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. On that note, I'm going completely off script, only because we I we have now been introduced with this concept of people having relationships with AI. And I'm just kind of curious if that's coming because we know that, for example, pornography has been something that's been a problem in couples and relationships and can create intimacy issues. Yeah. Um, but now we're seeing this like new AI piece potentially. So have you seen that yet?
SPEAKER_01:I've seen it with a few clients, not as many, but it's very small. Like it's people who maybe even before AI were challenging, were finding mean having meaningful relationships challenging already. So whether it was because of their interest, or maybe from a social perspective, there is a bit of uh a lack there, uh being able to build uh or feel comfortable in social interactions in general. So then now with AI, it's just like, well, actually, I don't need to speak to anybody. Now I can just speak to a chat bot and spend my day like that.
SPEAKER_02:And they validate me, they tell me all that I need to hear, all the things, right? It's what a world. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I I so one of the questions we have for you is how you decided to transition from traditional psychotherapy into the strategy, the coaching, uh, that world.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So uh with my work as a psychotherapist, especially with couples therapy, I have been, I have had the pleasure of kind of seeing couples to different stages of life. And what I see in couples who are primarily in the 50 plus age range, um, they kind of come up with a sim the same issue in terms of okay, well, we've spent uh our early years focusing on our children and on our career. And then our kids are now leaving home, going to university or college. And now we're looking at each other and we don't recognize who we are anymore. We don't know who we are as couples, we feel very disconnected from each other. Uh, so then knowing that this was something that was coming up often, it kind of prompted me to want to tap into that a little bit more and focusing primarily on um high performers uh or high net worth individuals uh specifically from the perspective of at least on my end with the goals that I have for my business to be able to scale it long term. Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Amazing.
SPEAKER_02:And so do they show up differently?
SPEAKER_01:Like when you focus on like the high performers or the high network, is it that they show up differently in the net in the empty nesting phase than others, or is it like are there so the way that it is different is that because they show up more from a system and optimization mindset in regards to it the work, all of the work that they've done, let's say so. When we're talking about high performers thinking lawyers, doctors, business owners, executives, CEOs, so those are people that have had um high demand roles and uh in the context of their work, a lot of their work may be business focused, so using a certain type of language that the partner may not necessarily be familiar with, or the partner may also be a high performer themselves. So, what happened later on, the way that that differs from the general population would be if a couple in their 50s that is a high net worth or high performing individual, they go to psychotherapy. Yes, they enjoy talking about the issue, but then at some point they're like, okay, like what are we doing? Okay, I'm leaving this session, let's go. Like how, you know, they they're very driven, very action-oriented, very strategic focused. So then that's kind of why um I had that interest specifically to focus on that niche.
SPEAKER_03:That's so cool. Yeah, so so empty nest, that that is your sort of niche area. And and that you're saying was kind of really coming from noticing that that was what was coming up the most in your work, especially in that in that area.
SPEAKER_01:With that population.
SPEAKER_03:And so you said that um realizing kids are gone and we don't recognize each other anymore. But is there is there anything else that you notice is just really common with that empty nester sort of well, there's also concerns about retirement, right?
SPEAKER_01:So it's kind of like, okay, well, now we're not working. What do we actually want to do? So, in terms of uh a common or shared vision for the future, right? Um, so sometimes that can also be a challenge. And it's kind of leaving in the home. Uh, maybe if both partners are retired, they might each have their own thing or their own interest, and then adding to the piece that the relationship wasn't really prioritized while they were raising kids. So now you have two people that already have different interests, but even more than that, they are not connected as lovers, as a couple, and then it adds on to the disconnect and feeling, you know, very far apart, which then lead to that wombate feeling, even though they're living together.
SPEAKER_03:Right. And and divorce is really up in the 50s, in the in the 50s, yeah, probably because of that, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think uh that plays a big part as well. And for a lot of them, sometimes there's also the fear of not wanting to start over at 50. It's kind of like, okay, well, we've been married for 25 years, might as well we're like familiar, might as well stay in it, or let's say they might stay in it and they're very unhappy, uh, or they end up divorcing, but then starting over feels very challenging as well. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Huh. So, how does a high-achieving couple know whether they are to take the psychotherapy route versus the coaching route with your program, for example? Um, where do you find therapy kind of falls short and the empty nesting coaching kind of picks up on those areas?
SPEAKER_01:Well, with the work that we do as a psychotherapist, I think a lot of uh, especially when as we're going through the intake, you know, we want to know about the history, kind of what happened previously, what are some of the other aspects in terms of attachment style, or things that you may have experienced in other relationships, or things that you had observed in your parents' relationships that are that have had an impact on how you show up in your current relationship now. But sometimes uh for high performers, because they want that result right away. So for them, they don't have years to go through the history for the therapist to kind of get to understand them or really know what's been going on. It's like, okay, well, we have this issue right now. I would like to have some a plan or some strategy that I can implement and in 30 days or less that I'm able to see results, right? And and I see it from the same way that a lot of people talk about business nowadays in the context of, okay, well, um, if you have a plan or strategies that or strategies that you've implemented, in about two to three months, you want to know if it's working or not. Because otherwise, if it's not working, you want to shift it and to be able to implement something else. But then with psychotherapy, the first one to three months might be learning about each other or learning about each other as a couple, especially if you're going to therapy once or twice a month. So then that also takes a lot of time. Whereas some people don't really have that much time, not necessarily because they don't necessarily want to invest in it, but also think about the other things that they have to do if they're running a business or they're running company. So being able to see it from that perspective as well.
SPEAKER_03:And if I understand correctly, the the people that you're describing, high achievers, if they're career-oriented, they're also potentially action and results-oriented. And I do find it, and that can be a misconception sometimes when people go into therapy, is they think that the therapist is going to be really directive. Like you just need to do this and you do this, and if you do that, you'll be fine. And really, what we've noticed as therapists, that doesn't actually work for a lot of presenting issues. We actually first of all need to take the time to understand what it is. There isn't just this, you know, uh, just we're taught not to be directive at all. It really needs to kind of come from the client, but there is a role for directive intervention. Yeah. Definitely. It's just not therapy. Right. So that sounds like a big difference between going to a couple's therapist versus going to a coach. If you're saying, I want to come in, I'm ready to work on this, I'm ready to take action, I'm ready to work towards goals. We we we don't have these like foundational cracks.
SPEAKER_01:It's just like the What are we doing next? And what does the future look like? Right. And it's almost looking at it the same way as an organization might bring uh a consultant in to say, hey, these are the issues that we're having. We need you to sit with our executive team to tell them, okay, this is what you implement over the next few weeks, and these are the changes that you can see. Whereas in therapy, I mean, we're not even allowed to like promise a result to our client. So then at that point, uh a client coming in that might be result-oriented and would actually appreciate to have some direction, they might kind of feel lost and that it's not necessarily a good fit for them.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I love that. Do you see certain patterns with folks that again when they're considering the coaching, um, do you see certain behaviors and patterns that um show up most often in those behavior in those couples? I guess that you would in therapy, or do you see that they present the same way? It's just your approach has to be different.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so some of them present the same way. I think um, in regards to when I think about the main needs that a couple would have in the context of a relationship, it's a sense of safety, security, trust. Um, so those some of those same issues are present. It's just the way that they might uh talk about it might be different. So if one partner um is the one that has the business or that that is the executive person, so then they might come into the relationship bringing in language from their work to their partner that is completely unfamiliar with that. So then now they need someone that not only is able to kind of translate it to their partner, but in able to do that, in order to do that, you also have to be familiar with the language as well. Because sometimes even in therapy, I've had clients who are um in that world that are business owners or that have high um, that have high net worth or depending on their role at certain organizations. So for me, simply based on my business interest, I'm able to kind of talk to them within that language. So let's say using language such as, okay, lead generation, or, you know, your bottleneck, or things that they would, you know, they would be familiar with, then to kind of translate that into the way that we're speaking about their current issue.
SPEAKER_03:I would imagine that power dynamics could be a very interesting thing that you might see whether you have a couple where one person was the let's say entrepreneur, the other person was a stay-at-home parent. Now that role of the stay-at-home parent is now that's not really their role is completely changed now that the kids are out of the house. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:There's no one else to take care of.
SPEAKER_03:There's no one for right. But now, but we have this like head CEO that's used to telling, delegating everything, telling people what to do, being the decision maker and all of this. And I could see that causing potential conflict because she or he, whoever was at home, my husband's a stay-at-home parent, you know, the one who is at home is gonna be potentially feeling like I used to lead at home, and there's nothing to lead at home anymore. Now I'm just being led. Yeah. And I don't know how I feel about that. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:No, I think uh the power dynamic can definitely play a big part. And this is why, you know, at times uh we look at the aspect of identity outside of raising children and what that might mean as well. I mean, there are some people for them, let's say their lifelong goal has always been raising kids, which is also okay. But now it's understanding that, well, your kids are gonna get older, right? Like they're not always gonna be 13 years old. So then when that happens, what does that mean for you for the future? And kind of almost anticipating that as well and taking into account the type of partner that you have, the relationship that you're in, and what that might mean for the two of you when it's just the two of you.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. But then a completely different dynamic when you have two potentially high achievers coming and having nothing left to focus on outside of the relationship. I could see that being a different power dynamic of like now we're who's who's taking the lead.
SPEAKER_01:Who's leading at that point? And it can be either, you know, if they have they still have the work, their work ongoing even after their kids leave home, they might kind of fall back into that because it's natural to them. Or if they're both retired, going back to what we were saying earlier and they have different interests, then you kind of have two people going like this that don't necessarily have a shared vision and shared direction.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Wow. So can you tell us about your coaching program? I want to hear all about it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so kind of the way that I have envisioned it and uh with what we're speaking about now is really making it strategic and result-driven. So my goal is to serve empty nesters over 50 who feel disconnected from their partner after their kids have left home. So looking at it from that perspective, then it does lead to seeing, okay, well, how what does it look like targeting that population? Uh, what does it look like being in front of them and making sure that they know, hey, like there is someone that sees you that understands what you're going through. And when a couple comes in, my first uh step is going to doing an audit, essentially like an assessment of the health of their relationship and kind of seeing where they're at. It would almost be similar to an intake as we would do in traditional psychotherapy, except the main difference wouldn't necessarily be focusing on like all of the past stuff or the history that's happened, but more in terms of okay, well, what's the problem now? Uh, where are we heading? And then, you know, what do each of you need, or what do you need as a couple? And what do we need to do that in 90 days that you're able to see those results? Um, and I would actually have them take an assessment to on different pillars such as emotional connection, family dynamics, relationship with the kids, um, interest outside of the outside of the relationship to kind of see how they are in terms of their levels of satisfaction on those pillars, and then to see, okay, well, what actually is the main issue and what would you want to focus on at that point? And then once I've had that uh initial assessment, then I take the time to go over our conversation, the results of uh the quiz that they would have taken at that point, and then to kind of plan a world map that in 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, this is kind of what you would you would expect.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, it's interesting though. The the thought that pops into my head is is stuff around attachment and uh curiosity in that sense of because because you're obviously I'm sure very well versed in attachment, but that has that historical piece to it. So when you're doing this assessment and you identify, let's say you identify disorganized attachment and some avoidant attachment or anxious attachment, like you see that. Does that play a role in the coaching at all? Because I could see when it comes to the action orientation of what you're trying to get them to do, an avoidant, for example, might not do this stuff.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, they might not necessarily be willing to do it. And this is where using a similar language because this is coaching and consulting. I now have the flexibility to be able to say, Hey, if you don't do this, you're not gonna get the result. Okay. Whereas in therapy, I would have to maybe mince my words or kind of see like how I present it to them. It must be very free.
SPEAKER_03:Anyone have you watched shrinking? No. Okay, so there's a movie or a TV show on Apple, and it's it's a it's he's a therapist, but one of the first opening scenes is he just loses it and starts like telling his client what he really thinks and what he really thinks they should do. So it's a very shocking moment. But I think any therapist can look at it and go, like, we've had those moments where we're just
SPEAKER_01:Like, yeah, I just want to shake you. Yeah, so so for me, being able to have the flexibility to do that, right? And also to understand too the type of client that is coming in. Because as we're saying, not everybody wants to be told what to do, or they're not yet into that phase, they kind of want to be almost like uh you hold their hands as you're walking them to it. Whereas with that population, and this is where it would still, you know, explore best fit as well. Because not everybody, not every couple would kind of fall into feet for coaching. Because if you're someone that is not ready to do the work, or maybe there's deeper stuff like trauma as well, then this is where, and the benefits of already being a therapist is so that I can identify some of those things to say. Hey, I think you might need additional support that this is not it's not fit for coaching and consulting. And maybe seeing a clinician might be the best fit for you at that point.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Uh I have a curiosity around the intake process, just the questions. Like, can you give us a couple examples of your process of assessing the client? Because I think the listeners would be really intrigued, and I am intrigued to know what exactly like a bit more detail about what you're assessing to get and what you need, information that you need about the couple.
SPEAKER_01:So essentially, the way that I'm envisioning it would be to kind of send them a quick questionnaire ahead of time to kind of know what is the main reason that they're coming in. So the same way that we would do a consultation prior to seeing a client, just so that you can determine best fit, right? So on my website, I feel like communication. I feel like that's what they'll communicate. They'll say like, oh, communication, or we just don't talk. Uh, which is very broad, or we feel like roommates. So typically, when someone goes on my website, there's kind of like a a list of description of what would a client that is fit for this type of program, what do they look like? So we'll say, okay, well, you're over 50, uh, you're an empty nester, um, you're high-performing individuals, and then I highlighting specifically what that would look like. And uh, this is where you're at, you're kind of feeling like roommates, you're passing each other in the hallway, you don't recognize each other anymore, you're having the same fights over and over again. So then you start using language that they would use, maybe with their friends, or when they're describing the issue to someone else. And when they see that, they're able to say, Oh, yeah, that's me. She's speaking directly to me. So for me, that is an important part in terms of almost trimming down to see what would be a good fit. So then you're once you've able to do a bit of a self-assessment, self-identification as you go to the website, kind of get in touch with me, and then we talk about okay, well, what is the main issue? And making sure also, more importantly, that do they both understand the issue in the same way? Right. Because it is it is such an interesting piece that they might they might say communication, but it might not necessarily mean the same thing for each of them.
SPEAKER_03:Do you share the results with each other? Yeah, so then it would be the audit or something.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so they'll do the the well, when you say the audit, the questionnaire. So like yeah, they'll do the questionnaire separately. Okay, and then we kind of come in and say, Okay, well, this is what it would look like. And and this is where I would say, well, we're here to work on this and there's no secrets, right? Kind of putting it out there. They know, yeah, they know what to expect. We want to be transparent, we're we're doing this work together. Um, and then eventually, if there are misalignment or someone thought that, oh, I thought we're doing well in this area, might not be as well. And how is it from their perspective, kind of contributing to the main issue?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And then having a clear idea, okay. Well, if in 30 days or if in two months from now you were to say that from this coaching that it was successful for you, what would that look like? Yeah, and then that helps to then envision or put together the world map that would then help for where they're at.
SPEAKER_03:I love that ending piece, but I do realize like I feel like that'd be the scariest part of like filling it out is like, what if what I'm saying, like, oh, this part of our life is like of I'm satisfied eight out of ten, and the other person's like, I'm out of two. Yeah, which probably happens.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, which most which happens a lot. I mean, even in couples, yeah, we're obviously not saying things the same way. And that's why we're here.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, even in couples therapy, it happens as well when you have one person that maybe at the phone consultation you both thought you were on the same page, and then during the session, things are coming up that you're like, oh, I didn't know that. I never knew that was a problem for you.
SPEAKER_02:I hear that with individual um clients, right? They'll come in, but yeah, in our couples therapist, they said so they said this and they said that, and I didn't know that was a problem at all. So it's like there's always new information that's being brought to the forefront. But when there is a communication breakdown, there's no way that that communication is being relayed. You know, and so you're living in the unknown of a lot of things that often come out through these things, but it's interesting. That's so cool. So I guess when it comes to the and again, I know you've uh been doing a lot of couples' work and you've seen certain patterns, especially when it comes to empty nesters. So for someone who is not an empty nester who has young kids at home, um, how do you or how do younger married folks, I guess, preventatively end up not in a coaching program like yours?
SPEAKER_01:It's kind of like, okay, well, how do we await it? Appreciate what you're doing. However, how do we make sure that we don't get there? Yeah, and I think um we talked about identity as parents earlier in regards to what does it mean for you to have children and what does it mean for you to have a couple to be a couple. Um, sometimes I would say in my work as a couples therapist, what I see often is that someone, one of the partners may have an idea of what they envision life would look like when they have children. And it might mean we're investing solely in the kids, and then when we have time, you know, we think about, you know, going on a date or we think about doing something together. And this is very common. Like it's very common that especially if they have, you know, newborns or young kids at home, toddlers, that because they take so much energy and they're dependent on you as parents, you don't feel like you have the energy to be able to do other things. So you're barely surviving. So it's very easy to kind of fall into, well, we don't, we're just keeping those kids alive, right? Like our goal right now is keeping those kids alive, educating them, and focusing primarily on that. So then as a result, it's very easy for the relationship as a couple to kind of fall into fall um backwards. But I've also seen couples who've made it a point to prioritize the relationship as uh they're having kids and really to making sure that they're able to teach their kids that, hey, like we love you, we also love spending time with you, but mom and dad also want to spend time together. Like we as parents, we want to be uh able to show them that, hey, like we love each other, we love hanging out with each other, we love having fun with each other so that the kids from an again, from an attachment perspective, they're able to see a model of a safe and secure relationship, uh, which would also help them later on as well. So from a preventative perspective, it's it's really to think about how do you envision your life as parents, but also your life as a couple, as lovers, as married partners. What does that look like? And how do the two fit in? And where is the space for that in the relation, in the relationship or your day-to-day life?
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And I can see though a lot of people where it's like, yeah, the best practices, but the reality not being that, and then still ending up needing a lover. But I I have a curiosity because interestingly, your population is also a perfect overlap of like perimenopause and menopause. And I'm kind of curious if that will play a role at all in the coaching, because I could see it impacting the relationship a lot, but neither partner necessarily knowing that that is actually that is a part of it. For example, I'm thinking of of of uh sex life, right? We know that that can really impact libido for women and that type of stuff. Yeah, and men can think, oh, she's just not interested in me anymore. And she might think, maybe I'm not, I don't know. I'm not interested in anything. So I don't know, is it you? Is it me? I don't know. So I'm just kind of curious if if you have thought about implementing that, or like what would that look like?
SPEAKER_01:What does that look like? Yeah, and I think when we think about going back to the main need, right? Like, and I think this is where highlighting what is the reason why why they are here and what are some of the things that they want to work on. This is where you take that into consideration. Because for a lot of couples, sometimes sex is a is a big important piece. And if that were to be the case, then you kind of ask those questions as to okay, well, are there external factors other than the two of you that could potentially be impacting the way that you relate to each other that you haven't thought of, hence, you know, at that age, you know, perimenopause or menopause and what that would look like.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. I feel like a perimenopause informed practice. Yeah, it's gonna be important.
SPEAKER_02:It needs to be taken into consideration.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I feel like it's not, it's it it often isn't. It's just sort of like the symptoms that are there are equated to something else, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_02:Like you're just moody, you're just being irritable or whatever the case is without digging deeper.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah, thinking like how much of a big impact that it would have. Right? Let's say someone, I don't know, that is going through hot flashes all the time and then they're feeling tired or like uh even though they're not there are no kids to take care of, but then just based on how they're feeling physically, it's draining and it has an impact on how they relate to other people around them. So then it's to see, okay, well, is that an important aspect? And because going back to what we're saying earlier, yes, the issue could be about sex for both people, but then does that mean exactly the same thing?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely. That's amazing. And so, what can couples do, I guess, when it comes to identifying red flags or identifying first steps or next steps? What could that look like if they're thinking, okay, do I want to contact her for therapy or for coaching? What would you say some of the telltale times? They do a consult for both, and then you kind of put them in one category.
SPEAKER_01:Well, the interesting thing is that sometimes not two partners are ready at the same time. Which is one may need therapy, the other one needs uh coaching. Yeah, just kind of like, you know, or you're dragging your partner, which I've I've seen in therapy before, where they come to couples therapy and one person is like all ready to do the work, and then you can see in the other person's face that they're just here because, well, divorce, I guess. Uh and then uh they feel like they don't have any other option. So then I've also, you know, structured the work in itself that if ever that were to be the case, that the other partner is not ready, what does it look like for you to do the work yourself? And how can that change the dynamic and the dance between the two of you? Um, because from you know, with the experience in couples therapy, or even when I'm saying clients in individual sessions, is to say, okay, well, your partner is not here, but I can speak to you directly. You're complaining about an issue in the relationship. What are you doing? Because I think sometimes people don't realize how they're also individually contributing to the current issue. Um, so then being able to directly address that, right? And it it's the it would be the same in that context that if it's only one person that is ready and they're willing to do the work, then we kind of work towards okay, well, what are some of the things that you individually can change? And I'm sure if you're around your partner all the time, eventually they they might notice some of those changes and maybe start asking questions. Now, to go back to your question, Michelle, around um early signs or detectors of what uh people can look out for. I think the feeling kind of saying that, okay, well, we're we're feeling like roommates, or I feel like we don't talk anymore, or we don't necessarily do anything with each other, or like when do we actually get to sit and spend time together? I think those are some of the language that are that for me I find them very telling in terms of the state of the relationship overall. Because then when you look at the terms of feeling like woman mates, what that means is just two people that are living in the same home, but they are living their own lives.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So what would a sign to you be like I don't want, like I don't feel like spending time with my partner, but I don't like that I don't feel like it.
SPEAKER_01:Would that be Yeah, it would, it could be a part of it in the sense of I want to spend time with them, but um, I don't know what that would look like, or it feels awkward, you know, even though we go on dates or we do things together, we feel like we don't have yeah, there's no kids or logistics to talk about. So then we're at dinner and then we're looking at each other.
SPEAKER_00:Like there's yeah, oh when is the time uh when is this ending?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so then you don't there's no topic of conversation, and maybe can feel for one person, can feel like a lack of desire and interest in them, or uh for the other, they're just like, Oh, I don't, I really would I I am enduring this time and I want to be here, but I just don't know what to say to you. Yeah. Um, so kind of paying attention to those signs, I think. Um, which people typically they know they're going to them, but they may not necessarily know that there's someone that can support them through that.
SPEAKER_03:I'm wondering uh when it comes to infidelity, uh, because we we see that a lot in couples therapy.
SPEAKER_01:I guess I'm curious if what would that look like in the coaching side of the one of uh it's interesting that you asked that question because one of the kind of I guess pre-qualifier on my website is well, if you've already decided that you're out and the marriage is kind of ending and you don't necessarily want to do this anymore, this is not the best fit for you. So because then similarly in couples therapy, there's not much work you can do with someone that is already checked out and that you know they're kind of done. So looking at it from that perspective, and if it is infidelity, I I would be kind of like that.
SPEAKER_03:And they want to stay together though. Let's say like they've said, we're gonna work through this. Yeah, but yeah, there's kind of this issue.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, there's this issue from from uh if I look at it from a psychological lens, it's the emotional injury, the hurt that is attached to the infidelity. In couples therapy, you would kind of focus a lot on, okay, well, prior to the incident itself happening, what was the relationship like? Because I think it's very easy to see someone who has cheated as them being, you know, um the person who just kind of wanted to cheat. But oftentimes we don't look at what was happening in the relationship that could have created an environment for that to happen, not necessarily to excuse it, it's not to say that we're fault anywhere, but it's more like could the the state of the relationship or the way that you guys were interacting with each other as a couple, could that have created an environment for this type of behavior to take place? Um so looking at it in the coaching perspective from that standpoint as well. But what would be challenging, and this is probably where I most likely would refer to couples therapy, is that if I see, okay, well, within the two hours, the focus is so much on the hurt and the emotional injury, then at that point there's deeper issues to resolve that a two-hour assessment is not gonna fix.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. At that point, you kind of put them in that couples therapy stream versus the coaching stream.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. But interestingly, what I'm understanding too about the point of the coaching program is to make this rock solid relationship moving forward in this new stage of life that would actually inoculate it from infidelity. Yeah. Because we are the whole goal is to reconnect, rejoin together and move on to the store.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, like having a shared vision of like what would that look like the next, you know, the next 20, 15 to 20 years of our lives? What do we want that to look like? And that population, when they're struggling relationally, they're in a lot more pain in comparison to a younger couple because they don't have as many years left. So for them, they also see it from the end-of-life perspective as well. As to man, do I really want to spend the next 15, 20 years the same way that things are currently?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I so wish that there would be people that would do this before contemplating divorce. First of all, it'd be way less expensive. Yeah. And way less work. Do you know what I mean? To just because I think that people get in this habit of this is how it's always been, so this is how it will always be.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_03:Which is not, and we see this in therapy too, right? Where people are like, I've always behaved this way, and we're trying to work with them on new interventions and change their behavior. And like, I can't help it, this is just how I am. It's like, no, this is how you've practiced to be. We can practice to be different, differently, but you have to be willing. But but you do have to be able to do that. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02:There has to be a buy-in and there has to be work that's done to it as well, too, right? And I think that's again, when you have a couple, it's challenging in that sense that this might be one who's in a different level of change or a different stage of change versus another one. And so that sort of limits what that can look like. But it sounds like they can even go from one to the other, right? They might do the couple's coaching for 90 days and then uh go do some therapy or do some therapy or do it conjurantly.
SPEAKER_01:Like you see both.
SPEAKER_03:Could you see a couple through their couple's counseling and to be coaching?
SPEAKER_01:So me individually as uh as a therapist. So this is where I'm kind of thinking about the CRPO regulations, like a college regulation around like uh mixing the two, and which is kind of what led me to do separate to have separate entities for both of them, because the lines then would be kind of great in terms of deeping into the clinical work and then doing more of the coaching work. I mean, I know I have heard of people that have done it, so I'm assuming that it can be done.
SPEAKER_03:Well, it's just that there's not a lot of people that do the coaching.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_03:So so if you have this great couple and you've done great couples therapy work and you're like, ooh, they would really benefit from this more coaching perspective, but I don't have any way to refer them to. At least if it was the other way and you're like, oh, you guys will be a good fit after you do some therapy, you could refer out. But yeah, it'd be hard to do it the other way.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. No, it's and it's really um making sure that like within jucheo, so for example, from an ethics perspective, would it be seen as a dual relationship? Or can, you know, would uh the college really see it as two separate things, right? And and also thinking about okay, well, how is that now represented to the public in terms of you as a psychotherapist and you as a relationship consultant or coach, what does that look like?
SPEAKER_03:I think a lot of the listeners right now probably don't quite understand what we're talking about because they don't know how that that works. But when we when you are in a professional and when you're regulated by a profession, they they sort of give us rules that we have to follow and dual relationships is something they really don't like. Oh yeah, but also it it's funny though that we get rid of it entirely if we live in small communities in which it's unavoidable. But um, but yeah, it's it's not like an it's never this very much all or nothing. There's this it is very gray. And you just have to make sure that you're setting good, healthy boundaries.
SPEAKER_01:Of what the tool looks like. Okay, well, if we're in a clinician space, this is or clinical space, this is what to expect. And then if it's more coaching, yeah. And yeah, I'm probably gonna tell you what to do. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely. So what would you, I guess what message would you have for couples um who might be in a stage where they have to start over, where they want the latter half of their years to still be positive. They've tried the couple's therapy piece and they're at this stage in their life or in their marriage. Um what would your advice be to those folks?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, at that point, it would be having an honest conversation about where you're at, um, and uh recognizing, okay, well. I don't think where we're at right now is working. I think sometimes people think about it or they recognize it, but then they don't necessarily voice it. So then those words are just inner thoughts that are not necessarily expressed out loud. So thinking the time to have the honest conversation as to okay, well, we want to stay together, but we don't like where things are at currently, and we recognize that this is not what we want the next 15 to 20 years to look like. What are we doing about it? And if both of you are high performers and asking yourself, okay, well, if we had a business and we didn't want the business to fall under, what would we do? Would we invest in a consultant? Would we bring someone in? Would we get some coaching? Um, and looking at it from that same perspective as well, in the sense of there is room to bring strategy and planning into a relationship. At the same time, it's to see that the relationship in itself and how you show up can't really be systemized or optimized, that you actually have to be present and do the work and we're we're people, and we have to take that into account. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:What I love about relationship coaching versus relationship therapy too can feel a lot less threatening to say let's do coaching because that feels very much like optimizing versus fixing a problem. And I think that it could be an actually easier conversation to have to say we're transitioning into this new phase of life. Let's get some like a consultant in, let's get a coach in that can come help us do that transition in a way that that might be better than what we might come up with on our own, but it doesn't necessarily actually have to stem from a problem.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I think that's a good thing for listeners to think about like therapy and and consulting and that type of stuff doesn't always have to generate from a problem. It can be proactive. And and coaching is an easier thing that makes sense to be more proactive.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and in a way, you can also uh remove yourself from it, almost like detach yourself from the issue in itself. I think a lot of times in couples therapy, what will happen is that if there's an issue in the relationship, it will be like, well, my husband has this issue or my wife has this issue. So the issue now is attached to the identity of this specific person. And then going back to what you were saying earlier, Tina, around um, oh well, this is who I am, and that's it, right? But if we see it as, okay, well, this is a problem, this is a relationship problem, this is a problem in the relationship that can be addressed, a dynamic that can change. So seeing it from that perspective, that it then doesn't fault the individual in itself. And even if it was based on how the person grew up or the way that they were raised or the experiences that they've had is okay, well, you've had those experiences in the past, they've kind of shifted how you think now. You can have new thoughts, you can have new behaviors, you can learn a new set of skills. It's okay to recognize that you know what, I don't really know how to do this, but more importantly, is to have the desire and the willingness to do it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Amazing.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I think we just want to thank you so much for coming today. This is I I I think this is an incredible service that you're gonna be providing. I think we need a lot of it out there because again, I think that people with a bit of work could put magic back into their relationships and they just don't know what to do or how to do it. And they might be too afraid to go to couples therapy, but with this other option that is very proactive and very directive and that type of stuff. So we're really excited about um what you're you're offering people in Ottawa.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we're looking forward to it. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, that's okay. I was gonna say, where can where can folks find out more about your coaching program and connect with you?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so if someone wanted to connect with me, they could go on Instagram and uh type my name, Benson Avril, uh, the same thing on YouTube as well. And then at that point, they'll be able to find a link that will kind of take them to the website to be able to have the information that they need.
SPEAKER_03:And we put that in our show notes so you have easy access to it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, awesome. Well, thank you for having me. This was great. Thank you for tuning in.
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