S2 · Ep 10: AITA Scenarios — Boundaries Without Guilt And Navigating Limits | The MindSpa Podcast

What happens when setting a boundary changes how others see you?

In this episode of The MindSpa Podcast, Tina Wilston and Michelle Massunken explore a series of “Am I the A**hole?” scenarios that highlight the complexity of boundaries, communication, and relationship dynamics. From friendships and family expectations to ethical dilemmas and long-term partnerships, this conversation reflects on what it means to honour your limits.

Scenario 1: Friendship, Discomfort, And Observing Red Flags
A woman chooses to spend time one-on-one with her friend rather than around her friend’s partner, whose behaviour feels controlling and passive aggressive. Tina Wilston and Michelle Massunken explore how boundaries can be an act of protection rather than judgment. 

Scenario 2: Family Expectations And Professional Boundaries
A therapist refuses to provide free therapy to a family member and faces backlash. Tina Wilston and Michelle Massunken discuss ethical responsibilities and the pressure professionals face within personal relationships. 

Scenario 3: Ultimatums, Boundaries, And Relationship Change
A woman tells her partner she cannot stay unless he seeks help. Tina Wilston and Michelle Massunken reflect on the difference between ultimatums and boundaries in shaping relationship change. 

Scenario 4: Family Gatherings, Guilt, And Emotional Drain
A woman stops attending family holidays due to passive aggressive dynamics. Tina Wilston and Michelle Massunken explore guilt, emotional exhaustion, and self-protection. 

Scenario 5: Forgiveness Without Reconnection
A woman chooses not to rebuild a friendship despite a sincere apology. Tina Wilston and Michelle Massunken discuss why forgiveness does not always mean re-entry into someone’s life. 

This episode offers a grounded look at how boundaries can be misunderstood, and why holding them can still be the healthiest choice.

The MindSpa Podcast

Thoughtful conversations about mental health, relationships, identity, healing, grounded in clinical expertise and steady human insight.

Hosts

Tina Wilston, M.Ed., Registered Psychotherapist 

Co-Owner, MindSpa Mental Health Centre

LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook

Michelle Massunken, MSW, RSW

Co-Owner, MindSpa Mental Health Centre

LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook

MindSpa Mental Health Centre

Ottawa - Kanata & Gloucester

themindspa.ca

LinkedIn, instagram

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Transcript

Controlling Boyfriend And Friend Boundaries

Tina Wilston 0:02

Welcome back to the latest episode of the Mind Spa Podcast. This episode is our favourite Am I the Ahole First post is Am I the A-Hole for refusing to be around my best friend's boyfriend because I think he's controlling. I, a 33-year-old female, have a best friend who has recently started dating a new guy. I don’t think he’s abusive, but he is very controlling and passive aggressive. He makes little comments that put her down and the whole vibe is just uncomfortable. I tried to give him a chance, but I really don't enjoy being around him. So I told her I'd rather hang out one-on-one instead of with both of them. She got upset and said I'm not supporting her relationship and that I'm judging him unfairly. I don't want to lose her, but I also don't want to force myself into a situation that feels off. Am I the A-hole? What do you think about that? I think that you're not the a-hole. I think that you are a friend who is observant.

Michelle Massunken 1:08

I think that in this case, it's really not about the friend, it's about the boyfriend and his behaviour. You obviously value the relationship that you have with your friend that's important to you. You want to be able to still spend time with her outside of the boyfriend, but you're also seeing some red flags that you don't want to ignore. I think generally speaking, you think about like relationships when our friends get into relationships at first, you know, they get a little bit googly-eyed. They always see things the way that it is. Yeah. And sometimes it's not until a friend or an outsider points things out that they're also able to recognize, okay, yeah, he does he does say things that put me down, or he does say things that are not appropriate or the cases. But yeah, I think that that's an important awareness that you're having and you want to hold on to that. Yeah, I think that that's insight that hopefully your friend comes to realize at some point, but your decision is important to stick to because it's not about your friend. It's really about the boyfriend. Yeah. I think this is such a I think this is a common situation that people find themselves in. I actually find as an adult making new friends, my husband and I, and and many friends that we have, we always make this joke. Well, you might meet one half of a couple and you're like, they're so amazing. And then you get together and and the spouse comes and you're like, oh, oh, this isn't as amazing as amazing as I thought it would be. Um, and so, and how do you handle that situation? Because if you really want to keep that friendship with one and not necessarily the other, I don't know, it kind of gets messy there. And it sounds like she's trying to protect their protect her friend. Yeah. And sounds like she might be trying to protect their relationship by saying, you know, this could this this is gonna make me uncomfortable, but also I could negative negatively impact your relationship if I keep hanging out with you guys, because I might say or do something that upsets him, and then it's gonna make it harder for us to be friends. So if we just do one-on-one, we kind of get to like protect our relationship. And so I think it's a healthy boundary to have. Um because basically, like the boundary would sound like, hey, when I hang out with you and your boyfriend, I notice that sometimes he says things that make me uncomfortable. Uh, and it is in relation to, I don't know, if really is critical of you or whatever. Um, so either like if he stops, we could still hang out. But if he doesn't, maybe we just hang out one-on-one. So it would say she's she's doing what she needs to to kind of set a healthy boundary for herself. Yeah. Did she say, I wonder if she had that conversation with her friend in terms of like the why? Yeah, that's a yeah, I don't know. She didn't say, but I get I think that's a very important part of this because if your friend is really forcing the three of you guys to hang out together and feeling unsupported because you're not hanging out with her and her new boyfriend, she might not fully understand it the way that you understand or the way that you see it. Yeah. And that's perhaps the way she's feeling unsupported or she's feeling as if you're not there for her. But I think if she understands that, like, like you just said, if you're clear with what the boundary is, yeah, and she understands it that way, she might push less for you to be around the boyfriend. She might be like, you know, it's actually for the best that you're not around us. Yeah. But if she doesn't understand it in that light, then all she would want is for the two people that she cares about the most to also care about each other and to spend time together. But I think, yeah, if she said something like, I have to bite my tongue a lot, you know, I I did, you know, it hurts me to see you spoken about that way. And but I mean, I think that is a difficult conversation tell. I wouldn't be surprised if she isn't that transparent. But something that I'm noticing just in society in general, happening more and more is people are less transparent. They just kind of want to give the least amount of information possible. Yeah. But then it leads to, I think, a lot of people not understanding. Right. Yeah, there's like so much that you can do with limited information. Yeah. You're gonna fill in the blanks, exactly. Whatever narrative, and it's not going probably gonna be good. Yeah.

Tina Wilston 5:26

Right.

Michelle Massunken 5:26

So that's an important, I think. I know she mentioned that the boyfriend is passive aggressive, but also I think just as opposed to the ground being passive in this as well, without giving her that full transparency, that full information for her to be able to have enough knowledge to make a decision about w ho she ends up with and what that looks like. But I think it's so much easier to be passive or passive aggressive than to assert ourselves and to share what our wishes are and what we're needing in situations. But yeah, at the end of the day, when we don't do that, we end up feeling the impact of that.

Tina Wilston 5:59

I always find it interesting when people frame something like you're not being supportive. In other words, like you're not listening. Because sometimes I wonder how do you define support? How do you define listening? And I've seen people define listening as unless you do what I think you should do, you're not listening to me. It's like, oh no, I could, I could listen, I could hear you, I could even validate you and still not do what you want to do. Right. And that doesn't mean I'm not listening. That might be I disagree with you. Sure, you could say I'm disagreeing with you. But this idea that I'm somehow the problem. So even like this idea that me not wanting to be around your boyfriend is not supportive of me, she's actually trying to be supportive of her. Let's say it was something different. Like, I can't be around them because I don't can't be around your boyfriend because I'm single right now and I don't seeing you so in love is triggering for me. And so I can't be around you. I can understand why that's a bit more selfish, right? Like that has nothing to do with me. You're just like, right? But that's it's it's she's actually being supportive of her friends by saying I don't want to be around each other. Yeah, because they're like how to treat you. Yeah, like you're like being protective in a lot of ways.

Michelle Massunken 7:18

Because again, you're seeing things that she's not seeing, you're calling it out, but the child becomes like if you're not communicating that with her, then she has no idea of your why. Yeah, but I definitely think it is supportive of anything because again, it's not about the friend, it's about the boyfriend and his behavior. That's what's inappropriate. Those are the red flags that you're aware of.

Tina Wilston 7:37

And the friend isn't trying to be controlling either, because otherwise she would take a you need to break up with him sort of approach, and she's not. She's like, I'm respecting you and your decisions and your desire to be with him. Just there, there's this piece like silence can feel like complicit.

Speaker 3 7:52

Yeah, right.

Michelle Massunken 7:53

If I don't say anything, let's say the boyfriend's always making these jokes and in order, and and they're hurtful to my friend, but she's laughing along. And in order for me to stay with the norm, I need to laugh along too. That can put people in a very uncomfortable position of feeling like I feel like I'm encouraging this person to treat you poorly, just so that I don't make it awkward by being like, hey, dude, that's not a funny joke. You shouldn't speak like that to my friend. Yeah. So it is putting her friend in a really difficult situation to have to sit there and watch it and not say anything and potentially encourage it silently. So, in a lot of ways, her decision not to go is her asserting herself. Yeah. Because she's saying, I'm not going to put myself in that position. I'm not going to encourage this behavior when I know that it's not in support of you or know the impact that it has on you. Even if you don't recognize the impact that it has on you right now, I see it. Yeah. And I don't want to support that. But it's tough when that's misinterpreted.

Tina Wilston 8:54

Yeah. And like you said, if she has her like little love goggles on that are kind of blind to some of the because I like like many things we've said before, sometimes people on the outside can see issues before we can see them. It's always hard for us as therapists because sometimes we're like, oh, I see what this looks like if we don't deal with it now. I see what this looks like 10 years from now. I don't want to see you in that position 10 years from now. Because we know what it looks like when when you stick like those those issues are there right at the very beginning. And you don't actually do anything with it. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a good friend. I think I think tell you the truth. Yeah. I just hope that they've had this conversation. Yeah. That's the only thing that is a bit unclear, but I agree.

Refusing Free Therapy For Family

Michelle Massunken 9:37

If she's a good friend and she cares about you, which it sounds like she does very much, yeah, then this stance makes perfect sense because she's protective of you and sees your worth perhaps differently than how you might be seeing it, and sees what he's doing the impact that it has on you. So yeah, I I think that it's definitely an important role of advisorship and not the idea of an a-hole at all. Yeah. Different. Different. Okay. So am I the a-hole for refusing to give my cousin free therapy, even though she says she's struggling? I, a 36-year-old female, I'm a licensed therapist. My cousin recently reached out asking me if we could talk because she's been dealing with anxiety. It quickly turned into her wanting actual therapy sessions. I told her that I can't ethically treat family members. And even if I could, I wouldn't do it for free. She got offended and said, I'm putting money over family and that she thought that I cared more. Now my aunt is involved and saying that I'm selfish. I feel like this is a pretty stated boundary. But now I'm second guessing myself. Oh gosh, am I the a-hole? Well, all it's going to take is talk to your regulatory college before that you're not the the a-hole there. But let's put that piece aside. Like it's obviously completely unethical, and she can’t do it. But this this other piece of the cousin like expecting it. Um, the aunt chiming in. Yeah, wild.

Tina Wilston 11:13

Yeah. I just wonder if there's any other professions that face this, the way that mental health professionals face it. Like the expectation of um doing things pro bono and for free. Because it's even within our industry, right? Therapists ask other therapists, can you do this for free? Right. And they'll say things like, I need five years experience, expensive trainings like EMDR training and and you know, like all this kind of stuff, but also pro bono. But you're doing it for free among all this criteria. Yeah. Because not only like it costs us money to do our jobs, particularly if you're in an office space. So you want me to pay for the rent, let alone all the other things, right? And do this at no cost. And do this at no cost. It I I I I wonder if a cousin would ask the same of a family member if it was like chiropractor, physiotherapist, you know, those kinds of professions outside of it being mental health. Yeah, maybe she minimizes that the idea of talking, right? And sort of just sees it as well, I just want to talk to you about these things and wearing that, but not recognize it. Like, I'm still a regulated professional. Yeah. And I can't talk to you in the capacity of a therapist. So definitely she wanted to just kind of talk as a friend. Yeah. Right. And we're having conversations. But yeah. If she's like, Can I can I reach out to you for some support? And you're like, nope. I mean, I can understand why the family might be like, well, what? What exactly? Book of Feminine. No. But if she's pretty schedule. Yeah, here's a calendar.

Michelle Massunken 12:43

If she's actually looking for therapy, I think that I mean, as a cousin, you'd also want to basically that you're honoring your cousin's profession in terms of her the ethics that she has to uphold. Yeah. So the license that she's maintaining as well, too. All those factors are at play. It's not again the selfish piece comes into question. Like who's being selfish here? Yeah, definitely. I would not say the therapist one is not the one being. Although I would be a bit curious because I'm thinking, like, how would I handle that if I was in that situation? I would definitely be looking at the resources around me to see if I could get them the support that would be more appropriate. Um, maybe they did that and just didn't say that part, but I'd be very curious what the response from the family would be if it's like, well, I can't do that because of ethical boundaries and all this, however, because I could see a potential scenario of like, well, I don't know that though, and that makes me uncomfortable. Therefore, I want you to do it. And maybe they don't I wonder, is it like a matter of explaining to them the conflict of interest piece? Right. And where they understand, like, I can't, like, there's a dual relationship. This isn't I don't want to, this is I'm not allowed to. Yeah. And I think that's sometimes they might not understand that, but they might just be like, okay, but we're family, like, yeah, you already know my history. Like I say, this person, you know, that's my brother, and yeah, it's easier. And it's like, yeah, no, I appreciate that, but there is actually a conflict of interest that I have to adhere to just based on my college. And so maybe they don't understand the role that plays. It's not about the money. It's not about any of those factors, but more so around my license. I'm a licensed therapist, and I have an obligation to the public, really. Yeah. Um, but I do have options. You know, here's a resource of like a pro bono intern, yeah, somebody else who might be able to see you and understand whatever the presented concerns are. And so I think it might be a matter of just explaining to them how and why it's a conflict of interest. Yeah. But then also giving them options and alternative versus like a high and jai.

Tina Wilston 14:49

Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 14:49

No, I can't see you.

Tina Wilston 14:50

Yeah, I agree. I agree. Because I think that and I don't know how many people understand that part of the biggest benefit of working with a therapist is the fact that they don't know anybody else or don't have any other context. They're unbiased and can really do an outside in perspective of what's going on for you. The second we feel biased in any way, shape, or form, it doesn't have to be a family member in any way, shape, or form. We have to do a lot of like self-assessment and assessment of the relationship and the situation to make sure we can still actually work with them. Right. Because we create any sort of notions about them that are unhelpful to the therapeutic process. We should step away. I don't know that a lot of people actually even know that.

Michelle Massunken 15:36

Yeah. And that's exactly it. And so how much more like the public or even the cousins, right? I think it's sometimes it's just a lack of information, a lot of knowledge around our obligations as therapists and what we have to actually abide by.

Ultimatums Versus Healthy Boundaries

Tina Wilston 15:50

Yeah. I do wonder how much that was explained. Hopefully, if it wasn't, an opportunity to just like explain it more thoroughly and see if there are any resources that can really help your cousin who is in distress. Show them I do care that you're in distress. Yeah, I did some research for you, and here are some options. And I don't have supporting place. It just can't be with me. Yeah. And if they can't understand it after that, doesn't we know who the a hole is here?

Michelle Massunken 16:17

Straight up. It's on a doctor. Okay. Next one. Am I the ahole for telling my partner to start therapy or I'm done with the relationship? I, 34-year-old female, have been with my partner, 35-year-old male, for six years. He has a lot of unresolved trauma that shows up as anger, shutting down, and withdrawn. I've tried to be supportive for years, but nothing really changes. Recently, I told him I can't keep doing this unless he starts therapy. I said it calmly, but it basically came down to this needs to happen or I can't stay. He says I'm giving him an ultimatum and abandoning him instead of supporting him. I feel like I've already been supporting him for years. Am I the a-hole? I love this question because of the ultimatum piece. It's not a question for you. What are your thoughts on ultimatums and what is the difference between an ultimatum and a boundary? That's a good question. I feel like with ultimatums, there are consequences. It's like if then this. Yeah, if you do this and this is what's gonna happen, usually it's a negative consequence. Like in this case, I mean and the relationship. Um versus the boundary, it's being able to set expectations of what you're wanting out of the relationship, but also take into consideration what the other person is needing. Right. And so I want you to support you, however, I'm needing X, Y, Zs at the place first.

Skipping Toxic Holidays And Guilt

Tina Wilston 17:46

Okay. So for you, an ultimatum feels like very self-focused, and a boundary takes both people into consideration. Yeah. I feel like with yeah, I feel like ultimatums are they could be more punitive than a boundary. Yeah. Um that's how I see it. Okay. Yeah. What are your thoughts on the difference? Well, I just I I think that the term ultimatum can sometimes get, I don't know, a bad rap. Like it's only got a negative connotation to it. But I do think what is the difference between a healthy boundary of saying you have some struggles that you're going through, those struggles negatively impact me. Unless you go get help for those struggles that are negatively impacting me, I have to end the relationship to me is a healthy boundary. But is that an ultimatum? But it's also technically an ultimatum. If you don't do this, then I'm leaving you. But it's it's sort of like I'm trying to think of there, I think that the ultimatum to me is not the problem. It's how is the ultimatum frame? Right. Right. So if it's like if you if it was like you don't go to this therapist, right? And I can see this therapist and I'd get all controlling around it and nipping around it versus like, I just need you to get help with this issue and have it not negatively impact me anymore. If you don't get therapy for it, that's okay too. But what are you gonna do in order for this anger or whatever it is to not be negatively impacting me? Otherwise, I'm all within my right to actually end the relationship. Yeah. If he doesn't go and get therapy, if he just doesn't stop, it doesn't have to be therapy. That's the thing. So that's I feel like that's where it becomes the ultimatum, where it's like specific tasks. If you don't do this, this one then, right? Right. Whereas the boundaries like, I need you to get some support, I need you to change this behavior, I need you to because of how it's impacting because it's how the because of how it's impacting me. Yeah. I think with boundaries, there's a bit more, I don't know if it's not flexibility because you stuff you definitely want there to be a specific outcome with it, but it's more I don't know, there's more um collaboration, right? I think when it comes to like having a healthy boundary versus it being one-sided and wanted ways. Yeah. But that's just my thought. I didn't think about that a bit more though. Because I feel like if someone came to me and said, This is what's wrong in our relationship, and if it doesn't change, I'm not gonna want to be in this relationship anymore. I'm like valid. Yeah, that's a valid yeah. So that is a behavior that needs to be changed. Yeah. Versus like if you don't change the behavior using this particular modality or technique or intervention. Because therapy, he can go to therapy and you'd be a passive client. Yes, he can. We've seen that because I I've been with a lot of like even addiction clients where they're like, oh my goodness, come here. Yeah. Okay, well, what's your goal when it comes to your substance use? I don't have a substance problem. Okay, well, why are we here to know? And so in that case, there it's not like the the therapy or the goal might not necessarily be the outcome that we're looking for, it might not necessarily be, but more around the behavior. I mean this particular thing to shift and change. Yeah, how that looks is where we discuss and we talk about, and that's where that value comes into play. Whether it let's say it's like what was the poster's issue in this case? Was it the the anger, anger, anger, passive aggressive, I think, but definitely like anger and that type of stuff. Yeah. And so again, how is it anger? It's not like they have the history of trauma. Right. Yeah. Which would be very it would be very frustrating to be told you weren't being supportive because you're like your stuff that you're trying to work through is having a negative impact on me. And or maybe you're not, you're trying to work, you're you're trying to work through on your own unsuccessfully. Right. And then it's having a negative impact on me. And now, and I've dealt with it for years, and I'm now saying I can't deal with this anymore, and now I'm unsupportive. I think I would probably not appreciate that. I get that. But I think that there is this opportunity here of like this conversation could sound very different where it's not like go to therapy or I'm leaving, and it could sound more like these are the things that are negatively impacting me in our relationship. I need these things to change. I think therapy is a way that they can change. But if you have ideas of other ways that you think that they foresee, because I think I I could foresee the response. It's being I'm working on it. We've we've all seen that scenario where the person's like, I'm working on it. And you're like, how? Please tell me how. What exactly are you doing? There actually is no. Do you mean that well? I'm aware of it. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's not doing the trick. So we're not there yet. Yeah. I just put the ultimate can be so abrupt, right? It's like go to therapy or meeting. It's like, okay, like if I go to therapy, but there the outcome isn't what you have a vision of the outcome to be. Do you stick around or do you stay because I did go to therapy? Right. Whereas like the boundary. Well, he doesn't know it's definitely going to be the easiest path to just go to a therapist. That's all you can be from me, signing me out. Right. But I think with this boundary piece, it's more of like what we need to see in this relationship, right? What do we want to be able to see? We want to see that we're feeling intense emotions, but we're having a conversation about that versus having angry outbursts. Yeah. Or there's shutdown too, that withdrawal, that shutdown. Right. Like until you learn, like you need to learn some emotional regulation and not shut down that way. Because for a lot of people, we know people who go into shutdown during conflict don't often, and usually where the problem actually lies is not the shutdown itself. It's the fact that once they're feeling better, they're like, under the rug, let's just move on from here. And that's actually the bigger, the bigger problem that I think a lot of people don't understand. Those who are like, it's getting too intense. Let's calm down, take some space and calm down before we talk. That's okay as long as we come back to it. Exactly. And that's people use that as a let's just do it in the road and keep it moving, cannot talk about it again. Yeah. Yeah. But it's really about going back to it. Yes and it. So I think it's fair that she is maybe frustrated that she was told she was not supportive. And I can understand also why she's like, we're at a breaking point unless something changes here. We just think that if she kind of collaboratively worked with them of like, do you have any thoughts on how we can? I think there we could be a good idea, but if you have other ideas, that type stuff, are you willing? What do you think? Now who knows? She could have had these conversations 50 million times already. And then finally she's like, all right, start thanking. Start therapy. I think I think there's people that have been there many times. So I can I can understand that. And I actually do really wish he would go to therapy because it would emotionally help if he would engage in with us. Yeah. There are other options than to shut down. Exactly. Yeah. Or anger. Yeah. Yeah. So the next scenario.

Michelle Massunken 24:49

Am I the a-hole for refusing to attend family holidays because I'm tired of the passive aggressive trauma? I, 30-year-old female, come from a family where every holiday is full of subtle digs, tension, passive aggressive comments. Nothing huge happens. But I always uh I always leave feeling drained or upset. This year I said I am not coming and that I'll celebrate on my own. My family says that I'm being dramatic and ruining traditions. My mom keeps saying that this is just how families are. Honestly, I feel more peaceful, monopoly, but also kind of guilty. Kind of guilty. So is this person the a-hole? Is she the a-hole? No, definitely not. But this is tough. I actually, this is a tough situation because I think that sometimes family relationships are so toxic and so awful. It actually gives you this, like on a perfect platter, a good reason not to attend these events, right? Um, but I think that people underestimate the drain and the struggle of that more moderate, passive, aggressive, I leave feeling bad about myself, but I can't even pinpoint exactly what was said. Like, oh, we've really put on some weight since the last time we saw each other. It's like, hmm, yes, that feels like you, but we need to like make it softer. Whereas if they came right out and said, You've obviously gained some weight since then you could easily be like, Well, they're a jerk. Yeah. But when they kind of frame it more like, oh, it's a wee. Exactly. And that's where the passive aggressive comes into play, right? Yeah. Indirectly giving all these digs. I hate like one of my biggest pet peeve. I remember learning it when I was in my 20s. I had this boss, and she told you exactly what she was thinking at all times. And it was not always flat, right? But I liked it because I was like, I always know where I stand with her. I know if I'm good with her, I'm good with her. And I know if she's not happy with me, she's not happy with me. And it gives me the opportunity to understand and fix it and actually be able to have a good relationship with her. Um, I don't pick up on passive aggressive cues. There's been multiple times. But my whole family has like big jokes about this because there have been multiple times. But I found out later, like people are really upset with me or don't don't like me. And I'm like, what? I I didn't pick up on it. But everybody else is like, yeah, she doesn't like you. I'm like, oh. Yeah. But that kind of goes back to what you're saying earlier, where it's like we were not as like assertive or direct anymore. Yeah, right. So everyone's kind of like, hey, it's like passive aggressive route, it's like dropping hints, and yeah, whether it's for the fear of like how the other person's going to interpret it, whether they're going to personalize it or what they're going to say about it. But I think that's a big part of it, where it's like they're walking on eggshells for the sense of like hurting that ourselves, but the other person's probably like, listen, like, lay it on me. Like, what tell me what I need to know. Yeah. So I think it's yeah, it's tough because we never know how the receiver is going to um take the message, but that also the person who's getting the message, they're walking in blindly, yeah. You know, not really knowing how it's going to be received. And something that becomes sure this boss of yours probably had mixed reactions. Yeah. Oh, yeah, not everybody has you appreciated it. I appreciate it. But I feel like it's also like my mom is very uh, you know how she's feeling. You she can't actually hide it. Right. So it's like, oh, this is so much easier. You know how somebody's there. Because I'm the type of person that's like, I don't, I don't per the the positive size, I don't personalize things. I can maximize if you're upset with me. There could be part of it that I did, but part of it is also how you took what I did and your experiences and all that. So I'm like, okay, I'm willing to to try to like work with you and you're not keep pushing your buttons that didn't realize I was pushing. You know, like I I don't know, I don't, I don't take things push, but I know there's a lot of people that it's very defensive, and then you can't speak to them directly. Yeah. But I'm just wondering if the person who you can't speak to directly ever actually does change their behavior from passive aggressive communication. Because I don't think they probably would. The person who's receiving the information? Yeah. Yeah. Like if I'm the type of person you'd be afraid to speak to directly, don't you also think I probably my behavior won't change if you come at me passive aggressive? That's true. Like if I'm not as direct as I need to be, then you're the likelihood of you changing your behavior is much lower. I would think so. Yeah. I I don't know, like, because I'm not going around trying to be like, oh, and I do know people who actually do this who are like trying to pick up on all the passive aggressive cues and then trying to like preempt and not upset them. Oh, I made this like comment about not bringing any food last time. I'm gonna make sure to bring food, even if they tell me, no, no, don't bring any food. Yeah, I'm bringing some. Yeah. Because I remember that passive aggressive comment being made about so and so about not bringing food. Yeah. I just, to me, that's so much idea. A lot of like brain power. But I think that's like that's a good point. Because sometimes we forget that we don't only have the two options of being passive or aggressive. Like we can actually just assert our needs. Yeah. We can actually find ourselves in that middle ground of like, what do I need? What do you need? Yeah. Again, back to that collaboration piece, right? But I think when we forget that there is that moment of just because I'm being direct with you doesn't mean that I'm coming at you aggressively or that I'm coming at you name-calling and yelling. I can actually just talk to you the same way that I would, but I'm still being direct with what my point is and getting that across. Yeah. But I think sometimes we forget that piece of like I can just assert my wishes and have a conversation without it having to be either me taking this passive aggressive route or completely aggressive. Yeah. Well, and I think that the other thing is that a lot of people don't realize the people who say they avoid conflict. Um, what we see a lot at least is this pattern of yes, you suppress your thoughts and your needs, and you suppress and you suppress and you suppress, and then you blow up. And then whenever you do actually finally talk about whatever's bothering you, it's a big blow up. Yeah. And then you get back into the pattern because you're like, I hate that blow up. Yeah. So I suppress, I suppress, I suppress, and then it blows up again. Yeah. So whenever I hear someone who says they don't like conflict, I'm listening for do you have common big conflicts in your life though? Yeah. Because if you both say you hate conflict and also are in perpetual conflict with people, it's probably a pattern of suppress and explode. Yeah. So I'm really curious about this family, just in the sense of she said this is what families are like. That is that's often an issue that we actually see, right? People normalize toxic, like lack of boundaries is probably one of the ones where it's like, that's just family. You don't knock before you come in, or you don't call before you visit, or you don't, you don't you just have your staying for three days and you stay for three months. That's just family. Like, wait, right? So I'd wonder a little bit about this of like normalizing some potential toxic behavior. Yeah, I don't think every family bickers. I don't think every family screams and yells at each other. I don't think every family spills resentment out in every family gathering. And I think that's that's a beautiful thing that the school stairs recognize that this is the norm, but I don't want this to become my norm. Yeah, I've been really trying to like disrupt that cycle, you know, and that's where staying away becomes important. But the guilt piece, I think, is what the Yes. Oh my gosh, the guilt. Yeah. Oh, we see that all the time, don't we? That sort of like I'm setting a healthy boundary for myself, but now I feel adorably guilty doing it. My favorite thing is like just because you feel guilty doesn't mean you need to change your behavior. There's a lot of times that we feel guilty about things. I'm always like, guilt is there to teach us, I don't like this feeling. Let me check my behavior and change my behavior so that I can make this feeling stop. If changing your behavior won't make you feel less guilty, then you're but you're not the problem. But this is where it gets a little mucky because she'd be like, Well, if I did go to the family thing, if I change my behavior and I went to the family event, yeah, then I wouldn't feel guilty anymore. And we've noticed that people often have to trade off guilt or resentment. Exactly. You have two things. There's gonna be another emotion that comes into play. Either way, you're feeling an unpleasant emotion because you're not leaning into what you're needing in those moments. You're not asserting yourself. You're looking at your family members and your mom and thinking that their needs matter much more than your needs matter. And so you're going to have little resentment towards your mom and your family and the aunt who makes that comment. So all the passive aggressive digs because you're not leaning into what you're needing.

Tina Wilston 33:33

Yeah.

Forgiveness Without Letting Them Back

Michelle Massunken 33:34

And so it's really a matter of like two emotions. I can either feel guilt or I can feel resentment. But even when it comes to the guilt, it's a matter of like, what is it that I'm saying that's making me feel guilty? Yeah. Right. There's probably a lot of should statements in there. Yeah. Of like, oh, I should be there right now. I should be with my family right now. But I think if we reframe that and recognize it, I'm choosing to be in a state where I can be at peace right now. I'm choosing to protect myself and to me into what I'm needing right now. And not even point to like that. Yeah. I think when it comes to being assertive, usually there's not a lot of it's not done favorite. No. There were not a lot of you know boundaries. Being on the receiving end of somebody else's boundary, you definitely not, right? You don't, you just expect them to do what you want them to do when you want them to do it. And so it's not always well received. And I think coming to realize that when I assert myself, I'm not going to have people who appreciate that I've asserted myself and I'm doing what I feel like I need to do in this moment. But I'm going to do that because the repercussions of doing the opposite are not worked at. The cost of that is high. Yeah. So I think I can expect her to get a lot of passive aggressive comments about her not being at Christmas. Oh yeah. And that's the thing. You can't control that. You either get it when you're there or you get it behind your back. Yeah. But this is the nature of the family that you're dealing with. Yeah. Yeah. It's tough. Family dynamics are one of the toughest things to navigate because they're so deeply entrenched. You know what I mean? Um, and it can be it can be hard to change them. I'm curious if she tried a whole like, let me get specific with the things and the patterns that I'm seeing that I don't want to be party to. And this is how I'm going to handle these situations in that moment. So I I I saw, I want to say it was a post or something, and it was like all the greatest comebacks to like passive aggressive behavior. Like, oh well, that was hurtful. Were you intending to be hurtful in that moment? You know, like what would happen if I just tried to change the dynamic in the space? I could potentially change that dynamic, but it's up to her if she wants to put in that time and then effort. Whatever. Is it worth it? Right. I think who knows? It should be determined. She could try it out, but I don't think it makes through that a-hole that she's like, I don't want to get modified. I actually want to protect my peace. Yeah, that's huge. I think a lot of people have done a lot of efforts with some people to get them to change to no avail. So they're just like, why am I exhausting? It is it's exhausting. I think that's where like the radical acceptance comes into play. Like, you know what? This is what it is. Yeah, I just accept that this is how my family is, this is the dynamics that my family walks in, this is the past progressive nature of my family. And I think when you accept that, and there's so much freedom in that, right? I actually talked to her about like pain and suffering. It's like, yeah, just accept it for what it is versus like adding yeah, more fuel to the fire, which just intensifies it. Yeah. And then using like self-guilt. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, not the a hole. Okay, next one. Am I the a-hole for refusing to forgive my friend even after she went to therapy and apologized? I, 35-year-old female, had a falling out with a close friend a few years ago. She did something that really broke my trust. Recently, she reached out saying she's been in therapy, has changed, and wants to reconnect. She gave a genuine apology. The thing is, I don't want to be friends again. I told her I appreciate the apology, but I'm not interested in rebuilding the relationship. She says I'm holding on to the holding the past against her and not giving her a chance. Juicy. Very juicy. Um, so are you the a-hole for not giving her a chance unless she's done her work? Yeah. I think it's I don't, I would say no. Yeah. I think that you are able to still forgive and to move forward and accept that she's done the work and that she's put in the effort. But you're also a different place now when that relationship may not serve you the same way that it once did. Yeah. And I think that you would do yourself a disservice if you're forcing it to be what you know you perhaps no longer need. Yeah. Um, but that's not the intention, isn't it for it to be personalized by her. But if it's not serving you the same way that you need it to serve you, then I think it's important to move forward from that relationship. I think we get when these stuff when we really try to hold on to friendships or relationships because of whatever, right? Loyalty or yeah, it's been so many years, I've known you for so long, and we grew up together and all those kind of things, but the the relationships don't no longer serve the same purpose at times. And we have to come to a place of accepting and acknowledging those pieces without it being a personal um, it's not a personal attack, or it's not because something ruptured or because something significant happened. But I think sometimes we have to really understand and really redefine what Lord who looks like and who is serving. Yeah, I agree. I I think what's interesting about this is I a lot of people mixed up this concept of like what forgiveness actually needs. Right. We do this a lot in in therapy where we talk to people about like how do you forgive somebody who's not asking for forgiveness and the importance that it's for yourself to forgive. Yeah.

Tina Wilston 38:44

And it sounds like the client, the client, the person, the poster has done that. They did the I forgive you. Yeah, I'm not holding on to this. Um, but we also know that forgiveness never actually means it also gives you permission to be in my life. There's those are two separate things. Yeah, you can have them together or you can have them separately. I can understand from the other person's perspective of the confusion of like, wait, but if you do forgive me, do I do some life hology? Why can't I? Why why don't you want to be friends again? I can understand the confusion. Yeah. It's not helping her though to call her an April or whatever, to make her feel like going, Jesus, why you're not in my life? Yeah, yeah. You're not helping yourself there. Yeah. So I think it's really just she needs to define, she also needs to define what the forgiveness piece looks like. Yeah. And recognize like it's not it's her choice. Like it's your friend's choice whether or not she allows you back into her life and whether or not that relationship continues. There's no obligation to it for whatever reason. Yeah. Even if you guys were BFS before, there's no obligation to um resume where you left off.

Michelle Massunken 39:50

And that doesn't mean that she doesn't believe you've done the work. It doesn't mean that she doesn't believe that she's forgiven you. It's just that this it doesn't serve the same purpose. And we're gonna just continue to be friends from over there.

Final Takeaways And Goodbye

Tina Wilston 40:01

Yeah. Cause because one of the things too is the friend could believe you're not friends with me because I did whatever I did. Right. And therefore, if I do the work and actually apologize for what I did, then that should put everything back into place. But for all we know, there was a lot more too than just that one thing. You can be like, you did the work on that one thing, even you did the work on maybe all the things that I didn't like in in the friendship. But I don't know, sometimes there's bigger incompatibilities that you're like, I just don't know if this is a good fit. Yeah. That's her right. I feel like she's okay, she's in the right to make that decision. Like there's no, it's not by force, it's not there's no obligation to make it work. Yeah, you know. But I think most people would actually think that they are being the A-hole by not letting the person back in their life. I think that society teaches us that the right thing to do after someone does the work and apologizes is to let them back in. Even though I think we would both agree that's not it's not that straightforward. It's not that it's not true. No. You're allowed to having people in your life takes a lot of energy. It's a lot of work, it's a lot of energy, and you only have so much of it to give. Yeah. And she might she might decide to have her in back in her life when she's ready to, in a different capacity. Yeah. I think that's a challenge where it's like if you are reintroducing someone back to your life, the assumption is that they're gonna kind of start where they left off. Yeah. But it might be in a different capacity, but when I'm ready to, and I might not be ready to. Yeah. But I think, like you said, if it's a societal piece, and that's part of the problem, right? When we just kind of shove our own needs aside and do what we think is right, yeah. We just just gotta jump right back into it and it's you know, go where we left off. But it's not always the fair thing to do for ourselves. I do wonder if the poster was honest with the friend as to why I don't actually not that they it's interesting because it's not they owe it to them to tell them I just I understand why, but I don't want to be friends because I also know on the other side when we're working with people and they're like, this person has cut me out of their life, and I have no idea why they really are robbing that person of uh of a moment of self-reflection and an ability to learn and grow. Because if you have five friends that all tell you, I stopped being your friend because they all said the same thing. You will eventually learn I need to work on that self-commune. If those same five friends all cut off the relationship and never told you why, you're gonna maybe never figure out what it is that you're doing to torpedo these relationships. And so if they did do the work that these five friends have brought to the forefront, yeah. They went to therapy and they did their work, does that now put them in a position where these five friends should now still know. Still no. Yeah, I just think it's a kind thing to do. I give that awareness. I do. There's a way to deliver it in a cruel way, and there's a way that that you can deliver it in a caring way that provides growth for that person and reflection for that person. I've just seen it too many times where people are just like, I'm just done with them. It's like, have you told them why? And they're like, no. I've told them actually some I've told them a reason, but it's not the reason. That's even that can be my word. I can see that being like, you know what, there's no point in telling the reason because I'm not friends with them anyways. Valid. It is valid. That's not like it's not everybody's obligation to do it to like put the mirror up for you to see or fall short. It's not their obligation, but I think I want to normalize and I like you can be a good person and do that. It's not inherently wrong to tell people the truth, even if it's gonna hurt them a little bit because it could benefit them. And I do actually think most people don't tell people actually because they want to protect them, they're trying to be good, they're trying to be nice, they're trying to but I've recently been like thinking about this concept of the difference between nice and kind. Like you can always be kind, you don't you shouldn't always be nice, but nice. It has this element of being locked all over. You can deliver negative information in a kind way. Yeah. But try to do it a nice way and you're not going to get your point across. Yeah. It's limiting. Yeah. In terms of like what you actually say, because you want to try it carefully, you want to protect feelings and at the cost of you actually not sharing what you intended to share with that person. Yeah. Yeah. I like that. And they will make you the problem. Do you know if you never tell them what it is, they're gonna fill in the blanks and it will be with how you're and nothing changes. And then when you rinse and repeat. Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 44:46

Same thing happens again with the next friendships. Yeah, yeah. I like that. Okay, so that was our last one. So another amazing episode of Am I the Ahole. Thank you guys for tuning in, and we look forward to seeing you in our next uh podcast.