S2 · Ep 15: AITA Scenarios — Where Do Boundaries Start When Everyone Feels Entitled? | The MindSpa Podcast

In this episode of The MindSpa Podcast, Tina Wilston and Michelle Massunken explore a new set of AITA-style scenarios through the lens of boundaries, emotional dynamics, trust, and relationship expectations.

Rather than asking who is “right” or “wrong,” this conversation looks at what these situations reveal about communication, responsibility, entitlement, and the ways relationships shift under pressure.

Scenario 1: Lottery Money, Family Expectations, And Financial Boundaries
What happens when a financial win suddenly feels unsafe to share? Tina Wilston and Michelle Massunken explore a lottery dilemma shaped by debt, guilt, and the pressure of “family helps family.” They reflect on financial boundaries, privacy as protection, and how adult relationships with parents and siblings differ from the trust expected within a partnership.

Scenario 2: Breakups, Responsibility, And The Dog Left Behind
After an ex disappears for six months and leaves a shared dog behind, can they simply come back and demand custody? Tina Wilston and Michelle Massunken unpack abandonment, responsibility, attachment, and why care, consistency, and follow-through matter when relationships end.

Scenario 3: Dating, Privacy, And Becoming Podcast Content
A woman discovers that someone she dated turned their private conversations into dating podcast material. Tina Wilston and Michelle Massunken explore consent, vulnerability, digital boundaries, and why technicalities rarely rebuild trust once privacy has been crossed.

Scenario 4: The “Work Wife,” Emotional Boundaries, And Relationship Trust
When workplace closeness starts crossing lines, where do emotional affairs begin? Tina Wilston and Michelle Massunken reflect on emotional intimacy, boundary violations, blame shifting, and what happens when repeated concerns are minimized in a relationship.

This episode offers a thoughtful look at the grey areas of relationships, boundaries, and emotional wellbeing, especially when the people around us expect more than we feel comfortable giving.

The MindSpa Podcast

Thoughtful conversations about mental health, relationships, identity, healing, grounded in clinical expertise and steady human insight.

Hosts

Tina Wilston, M.Ed., Registered Psychotherapist 

Co-Owner, MindSpa Mental Health Centre

LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook

Michelle Massunken, MSW, RSW

Co-Owner, MindSpa Mental Health Centre

LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook

MindSpa Mental Health Centre

Ottawa - Kanata & Gloucester

themindspa.ca

LinkedIn, instagram

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Transcript

Welcome And AITA Setup

Tina Wilston 0:01

Welcome back to today's episode of The Mind Spa Podcast. Today we are doing the Am I the A-Hole posts? Um, so first scenario that we have today.

A Lottery Win Kept Secret

Tina Wilston 0:12

Am I the A-hole for not telling my family I won the lottery because I know they'll expect me to pay off their debts. This is a throwaway account because my cousin lives on Reddit. About four months ago, I won a pretty significant amount of money from a lottery ticket. Not by private island money, but definitely enough to pay off my house, invest, and live comfortably if I'm smart about it. The only people who know are my husband and my financial advisor. The reason I haven't told my family is because they are terrible with money. My parents are constantly taking out loans they can't afford. My brother charge uh changes careers every six months and racks up credit card debt. And my older sister somehow always has an emergency that requires money. Over the years, I've loaned them thousands that I never got back. A few years ago, I got a promotion at work and suddenly everyone started making comments like, must be nice to have money. Guess you're paying for dinner. Family helps family, right? My mom once cried because I wouldn't co-sign a loan for my brother after he defaulted on two others. So when I won, my immediate thought wasn't excitement, it was panic. Recently, though, I've started suspecting something because I quietly paid off my mortgage and bought a new car. Nothing flashy, but enough for questions. I told them I'd been saving and investing well. Last weekend at a family barbecue, my sister joked that if I ever became rich, I'd finally be useful. Ouch. Everyone laughed except me. Then my dad said, Seriously, though, if one of us hits uh hits the lottery, we'd take care of the family. That turned into a whole conversation about loyalty and selfish rich people. I stayed quiet. Later, my husband told me he thinks they already know something is up because my cousin apparently saw us meeting with a financial planner downtown and started gossiping. Now I'm stressed because if they find out, I intentionally hid this. I don't uh I know they'll act betrayed. But I also know if I tell them, it'll never stop. Every debt, every vacation, every bad bad financial decision will somehow become my responsibility. My husband says protecting our peace isn't selfish. Of course you say that. And my mom would absolutely disagree.

Michelle Massunken 2:13

Oh my goodness. Huh. I feel like this is a case of like you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Yes. In so many ways. Yeah. You know the family history, you know their relationship with money.

Tina Wilston 2:24

Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 2:24

It's not a new uh experience, and you're just based on what you know from them, that they don't have a healthy relationship with money. And so whether you share this with them or you don't share this with them, it doesn't seem as if there's a win on any of those options. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I don't think it definitely I don't think that she's the a-hole for that. I think it's just a matter of like you know your family enough to know that this is this is the way that they are, and they're not gonna be happy either way. Yeah. Right. Whether you continue to buy the nice car or get the promotion, but I think that they're gonna be in a situation where the family is going to have their thoughts about them regardless of what they do.

Tina Wilston 3:04

It's funny you say that because I feel like actually a lot of people have questions where they're like, What's the right answer here? When the actual response to that is you have two bad options. You have two options that are gonna come with consequences and problems. Yeah, either way. Which one comes with the problems you can live with? Yeah, and which one comes with the problems that you can't.

Michelle Massunken 3:27

Yeah.

Tina Wilston 3:27

And that seems like that situation for this person.

Michelle Massunken 3:32

Definitely it does. Definitely it does. Um, because they know their family that they're not going to agree with it either way. And I think their approach right now is probably the safest.

Tina Wilston 3:42

Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 3:43

Where they've shared it with their husband, they're staying quiet when conversations come up. Um but they are also not yeah, I think that they're also not ignorant to the fact that it's not just like one person. I think it's different if it's not just like your mom that you're talking to, but it's like the mom, the dad, the brother, the sister. Like there's nowhere in this relationship that I can be safe enough to share this win with them, which is tough because you want to share that excitement with your family if you can. But if there's like, I'm just looking at them like there's there's no there's no winning.

Tina Wilston 4:17

No, it's just sad that their first reaction had to be panic instead of excitement. No, you know, that that's not now.

Truth And Loyalty With Family Money

Tina Wilston 4:25

Okay, generally speaking, is it disloyal to not tell the truth, the complete truth, nothing but the truth, to family of origin? Because I actually think this question is different if we're talking family of origin, parents, siblings versus family your spouse. Like if they were saying I'm not telling my spouse. Oh, would that be a different issue? I think that would be a I think that would be a very different issue. So is it disloyal to not tell the truth, the absolute truth, to family of origin? What do you think?

Michelle Massunken 4:57

Yeah. Um, I don't think it is. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think it is. I think if it was versus like telling it to your spouse.

Tina Wilston 5:07

Not even versus, just in general.

Michelle Massunken 5:08

Yeah.

Tina Wilston 5:08

I don't think a lot of people are brought up to believe that. Because at the end of the day, when you're raised as a child, you're raised to tell the truth, and that's bad to lie, and that, right? That dynamic in the family is to child to parent is very like it is you're wrong. Yeah, you're a bad person if you're not truthful. Yet there's a point in life where I think that that changes.

Michelle Massunken 5:32

And it needs to, I think it needs to shift at some point where when the dynamics also shift, yeah. Where it no longer is sort of that parent-child dynamic. Yeah. But as two adults, um, the dynamics shift to perhaps more of like a friendship piece, or it's different than, you know, if I don't tell my mom this, I'm gonna get in trouble.

Tina Wilston 5:54

Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 5:55

I think it needs to be able to shift at some point in time, and perhaps that's where the poster has noticed that the shift has happened because they're not feeling the need, or they perhaps do feel the need, but they're not leaning towards telling them the way that they perhaps would have if this was as a teenager or as a child, but recognize like my partners who I should probably share this with. That's that's what's important, is maintaining that relationship and sharing it with them. So I think that family fortune piece is less important than your partner having this kind of information.

Tina Wilston 6:23

I could also see it potentially like shouldn't speak to it, but it could cause conflict between her and her husband if the family did know. Right. Because first of all, he might not want them to know, which is also within his right to not want. Um, but then if they do start coming at them for money, and then if she does want to give it to them just to maybe get because I clearly she doesn't want to give it to them. But I could see her if they knew and then pressuring enough and that type of, she could change her mind. Now I want to, oh, it's just this time, and then it could potentially cause conflict between them.

Michelle Massunken 6:54

And it sounds like they're gonna ask her for money either way, winning the lottery or not. Like even when she had a new job, they were asking her for money, the new cars raising red flags, like she's better off just sharing this with her husband and moving on because they're going to come asking you for money regardless, like they did before the lottery win.

Tina Wilston 7:11

Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 7:11

And they're not gonna stop with or without the lottery win, anyways. It just will amplify it.

Tina Wilston 7:16

Yeah. So the way they set this post up was very, very much like I think most people who would listen to this and the family's bad with money gets you automatically on their side to not tell. Would your opinion change at all if there was no context of the family being bad with money? Do you think that family members have some type of financial obligation to co-sign, to lend money, to give money if you're more, if you're more uh financially sound than your family members?

Michelle Massunken 7:50

I don't think that you have an obligation. I think it really depends on the individual and what they value. Yeah like if being able to uh be supportive to their family, their extended family is a value that they hold near and dear, right? In terms of like, you know what, if I have, I want to make sure that you're also enjoying that. Something that they and their partners perhaps also agreed on, yeah, then I think that that's a that's a good thing to do, but it's not an obligation to do. Right. I think it really depends on on that. I don't think that if you're in a different place financially, the idea of having others struggle or to figure themselves out because I figured myself out. Like I don't I don't prescribe to that mentality. And so it depends on the individual and what they value, but there is absolutely no obligation. Never should be an obligation.

Tina Wilston 8:35

Never expectation, exactly.

Michelle Massunken 8:38

No, it's it should be there should be like a free will or like you have decided to do this just because of the uh the goodness of what you want to do. But in terms of like, no, you have to because you've made it and you make this much in your job and you've made this that that's there's no space for that. I don't think that's I don't think that that's something that is is fair to either person to have to kind of hold the weight of that. Yeah. Um, because then you never meet their expectations. It just keeps becoming more and more of an expectation.

Tina Wilston 9:05

Absolutely. You know what I find interesting in am I the a-hole post, just in general, this idea of money and family is often a topic that people bring up. And I find it interesting because I think that oh almost similar to what you were saying, like some people just have these expectations. And then when the family unit all agrees, like maybe they all share the same value, then they all agree. Then you're like, wait, is there something like there's something wrong with me? Maybe I am the jerk or the a-hole because everybody seems like this is obviously you won the lottery or you have lots of money, therefore you share it with your family members and you start questioning, like, is there something wrong with that? Did I miss something? Yeah. Yeah. So I think when there's a consensus, and we see this a lot too, like the rest of the family seems to all agree, but am I they a hole but we often see like unhealthy family dynamics underneath that, right? Where it's like, well, isn't it convenient that all the people without money are saying that people with money should share people with people without money? Who in this family dynamic has extra to give? Exactly. And would they be saying the same thing?

Michelle Massunken 10:12

If it was different.

Tina Wilston 10:13

Because people like to say hypothetically, hypothetically, if I had lots of money, I would do it. Yeah. Well, we don't know. Let's find out. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So I I think you're right. There wasn't a good step to take, but definitely no no there should be no obligation. There's no obligation for telling either if you know that that's gonna lead to conflict pressure um and them yeah, having unrealistic expectations of you.

Michelle Massunken 10:44

Yeah. Yeah, no, I definitely agree with that. All right.

The Dog Left After A Breakup

Michelle Massunken 10:48

All right, and let's look at our next scenario. So, am I the a-hole for refusing to return the dog that I adopted after my ex disappeared for six months? So my boyfriend, my ex-boyfriend, sorry, and I adopted a dog together about two years ago. Technically, the adoption paperwork is in my name because his credit was bad and the shelter required one primary owner.

Tina Wilston 11:11

Did she have to say his credit was special?

Michelle Massunken 11:13

She just had to put him out there. Like, that's a lot of information. She wants the full context.

Tina Wilston 11:20

Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 11:20

About eight months ago, my ex and I broke up after he cheated on me. He moved out suddenly and said he couldn't deal with responsibility right now. He left most of his stuff behind, including the dog. At first, he said he'd come back for him soon, quote unquote. Then weeks passed, then months. During those six months, I paid for all the food, vet bills, grooming, daycare, etc. The dog developed separation anxiety, and I worked with a trainer. I adjusted my work schedule around him. My entire life basically revolved around making sure that this dog was okay. Meanwhile, my ex was posting club photos, trips to Miami, picks with his new girlfriend. Not once did he ask about the dog beyond the occasional, how's buddy doing? Now, suddenly, six months later, he's demanding the dog back because his new girlfriend bonded with him during the relationship when they want and they want to raise him together. Absolutely not. Now his dog is or sorry, his family is calling me vindictive and saying that I'm keeping the dog just to hurt him. His mom even said a dog isn't a child. But honestly, this dog became my family after the breakup. He sleeps beside me every night. He freaks out when I leave the room. I genuinely think rehoming him again would stress him out badly. My ex is threatening legal action, even though the paperwork, microchip insurance, and vet records are all under my name. Some mutual friends think I should let him have the dog because he loved him too. Am I the a-hole for refusing?

Tina Wilston 13:16

Interesting. I I find this one interesting because again, and and this is where I think the confusion is coming in. Even my friends are saying, like, maybe just let him have the dog. But six months is a really, really, really long time, actually, to just like abandon, abandon like a being, a living being and have zero financial responsibility, logistical responsibility for six months.

Michelle Massunken 13:47

Yeah.

Tina Wilston 13:48

And then just walk back in and then demand that you you get the dog back. Now I find it the the story felt a little bit kind of like whose dog is it though? Because you tell us all the ways that it's your dog, but there was actually no discussion of what the discussion was when we got the dog of whose dog is it actually was our dog? Right. Is it your dog? Just technically it's under my name because of credit issues. So I'd be I'd be just curious, because sometimes what's missing from the story, and I feel like this is a good life lesson. Like if you ever have a friend who's telling you a story and asking your opinion, because us as therapists, when we're listening to to narratives that we hear, people were like, there's a part of this that feels like it's missing. And what, but just why? Why why are you leaving that part out?

Michelle Massunken 14:35

Why is that part not created?

Tina Wilston 14:36

You you could fit in that he was cheating, you could fit in that he had bad credit, right? But not what was the discussion originally about who, like who is the owner of the dog. And I would definitely say, obviously, if it was her, this is obvious. If it was joint, we agreed this is our dog. I actually say 100% her. Keep it because if we said it's ours and then you abandon it for six months, yeah. No, you didn't really fulfill the end of your bargain. Yeah. That's not an hour dog. We would have had discussions about sharing the dog and all that kind of stuff. So the fact that that never happened.

Michelle Massunken 15:17

So if it was initially his dog though, and she still did all of this, put it under her name, paid for all the vet bills, six months of abandonment, she was there to support him, uh, support the dog, would that feel different in terms of okay, now what?

Tina Wilston 15:30

A little bit. Okay. Not completely though. Not like automatically, then yes, he should get the dog back.

Michelle Massunken 15:37

But it's his dog.

Tina Wilston 15:39

Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 15:39

Technically.

Tina Wilston 15:40

Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 15:41

But who's paying for it? Like where what what defines it being his dog versus our dog? Is it just a matter of like I'm saying it's my dog, even though on paper, even though in theory and in practice, you are definitely assuming the role of the owner of the dog more so than I am, because I'm living my best life in Miami.

Tina Wilston 16:02

Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 16:02

And so what makes it, what would make it like the actions don't make it your dog.

Tina Wilston 16:08

Yeah. Also, how did the other girlfriend bond with the dog? We're just gonna drop that one because we're not gonna get the answer to that one. So I don't quite understand that one. But I like I think that number one, I'd be starting with a conversation of uh then I would like compensation for all of the dog costs while you abandoned the dog for six months. Because if it's your dog, then those expenses were actually your responsibility, not mine. And that is the first part we're gonna start with the conversation. If you're not gonna entertain that part of the conversation, try get this dog, go ahead. Cause also, like, I don't know, if if it's true that he's threatening legal action to get this dog after abandoning for six months, good luck. I'd be like, go for it. Show me then. Yeah. Because show me the proof that you have that this is your dog and not even our dog. And then good luck. I'm pretty sure the courts aren't gonna Yeah, they're not gonna side with him. There's no proof that he deserves to like get the dog. Best I would say, I don't even know. Do courts ever speak to join custody of a dog?

Michelle Massunken 17:12

That's what I'm wondering. Like, I don't, I don't know. I don't know. Trying to think of cases that I know of. Like, usually it just goes with the person who purchased it. Right. Like, even if it was agreed that it was joined, like whoever's legal, like paper-wise, whoever's talking. I don't know what the courts do though, but I've just seen other cases where it's like, I bought it, it's under my name, and so the dog goes with me.

Tina Wilston 17:33

Yeah, I think he'd be hard pressed. Like, she'd be able to show all this proof of all the stuff that she paid for for the dog, just even the last six months.

Michelle Massunken 17:40

Yeah.

Tina Wilston 17:40

Let alone the purchase at the beginning of the dog. Yeah. I do know from on some level that dogs are treated as property, not treated as like they would be treated in the same category as a couch.

Michelle Massunken 17:52

Yeah.

Tina Wilston 17:53

Right? So if I like bought the couch, the receipt of the couch is in my name, then the couch got a rip in it and I paid to have it reupholstered. And now you're like, give me the couch back. You're not you're not getting that couch back.

Michelle Massunken 18:06

Well, there you have it.

Tina Wilston 18:07

Right. So, but I mean, I'm just finding it weird that, like, interestingly, the way that she defended, but the dog sleeps with me and the dog gets upset when I leave the room. And I think it's bad to re-home the house sounds like like a defensive rationalization of why she should keep the dog, which I actually think is just unnecessary. You've lived with the dog. I don't know what the arrangement was, but even if he said it's my dog and then he walked out and didn't come back for six months, that's null and void of that conversation anyway. Like that nulls that conversation. Yeah. You can't just abandon something, expect somebody to take care of it then all of a sudden and say I want it back. So she doesn't need to defend herself. No. I feel bad that she's not getting more support from people being like, obviously not. Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 18:48

Like if he had done, like if it wasn't even her, if it was like he just left the dog, like in another situation or with somebody else, like he wouldn't really have a case. Like, no, you wouldn't the dog was abandoned. Yeah.

Tina Wilston 18:59

At a bare minimum, they would be saying you need to pay wh whatever the person had to pay to take care of the dog for six months, you're on the hook for.

Michelle Massunken 19:06

Regardless of the history between the two of them, like there's still an obligation here that yeah, because they're just roommates. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. He would still have to step up, right? And so I think she has a case here for sure. And it's not, I don't think she's the a-hole for this. Nope. Agreed. Alrighty. You want me to read the next one? Sure, I can. Did you oh I read this one, right? Oh, I'm going, sorry.

Tina Wilston 19:26

All right. Number three. Am I the a-hole for ghosting a guy after discovering he used our dates as content for his dating podcast? I, 28-year-old

Dates Turned Into A Podcast Episode

Tina Wilston 19:37

female, went on three dates with a guy I met on Hinge. Honestly, things were going really well at first. He was funny, confident, attractive, and seemed emotionally intelligent. On our second date, he casually mentioned he had a podcast, but I didn't think much of it because everyone has a podcast now. Valid. After a third date, one of my coworkers texted me asking, Is this about you? with a Spotify link. Turns out this guy had spent almost an hour on his podcast talking about our dates. He didn't use my name, but the details were obviously me. My job, the restaurant we went to, a story I told him about my dad, even intimate details about our conversations. Worst of all, he and his co-host basically critiqued me like I was a reality show contestant. They rated whether I was girlfriend material, debated whether I seemed emotionally avoidant, and joked about whether I was hot enough to overlook the red flags.

Michelle Massunken 20:31

Oh my goodness.

Tina Wilston 20:32

I felt sick listening to it. What really upset me was that uh some things I told him were personal and vulnerable. I shared them assuming it was a private conversation, not content for strangers. So I blocked him on everything without explanation. Now he's emailing me saying ghosting was immature and that I could have just communicated my feelings. He claims it's unfair because he never said my name and says podcasting um about dating is part of his career. One of my friends thinks I should have should have at least told him why before disappearing. Another said I probably inspired an entire new episode by ghosting.

Michelle Massunken 21:06

Oh my goodness. Am I the a-hole? I like the idea of inspiring a new podcast episode because that probably is what's happening. I would agree. When she's not wifey material, something along those lines. That's horrible. That is horrible. That is so bad. Definitely not the a-hole for ghosting him. But I do, I don't know. Like, is it even worth having a conversation? Or like you don't even know now if anything is gonna be used as content. Right. Like if I reach out and let him like you, it's it's challenging, especially because of how vulnerable she was in these experiences.

Tina Wilston 21:38

Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 21:38

I would not be blaming her for just sort of like just ending it entirely and not even risking having a conversation about what she's heard and why this happened or anything like that, because you can't even trust him at this point in time. No, he hasn't been transparent. He didn't, he wasn't forthcoming with any of the reasons or even any of the experiences that you shared with him and the date or any of those names, like anything of that line. Um that's tough. Yeah, I don't think that she's the a hole for that at all. And I think that it makes good sense considering the lack of transparency. And the lack of trust that he has displayed.

Tina Wilston 22:15

Yeah. What I find a little bit just interesting had me pause for a second, is that she never listened to his podcast or looked up his podcast, even though, and I get it, everybody's got a podcast these days. And he had one? Yeah. He said he had a podcast, and she was like, well, everybody's got a podcast. So I didn't really think much about it. But I find that slightly suspect only because in today's day and age, particularly at that age group, you check all socials, you you cyber stalk people before you meet them in person. That's just kind of normal behavior these days. And so I just find it like I just find it interesting that she wasn't like, what is even the topic of this podcast about? Because if she had, she actually would have had fair warning. And in in defense of him slightly, is I told you I do a podcast. If you had just looked at questions, yeah, if you'd asked me any questions, follow-up questions about it, like what's your podcast about? Or you looked it up independently, which you could have easily done, you wouldn't be so I could see how he could convince himself he was honest.

Michelle Massunken 23:17

Yeah. Like, would he have been transparent with her of like, this is what it's about? I'm actually gonna be using this date as content for like I wonder how open he would have been.

Tina Wilston 23:27

But let's let's put it this way. Let's say she she it's very clearly about dating.

Michelle Massunken 23:32

Yeah.

Tina Wilston 23:33

And then she says, Are you gonna use our dates as content? And then he says, No, no, no, I would never do that. And then he goes and does this. Right. That's very, very different than maybe I will, maybe I won't. What do you think? She says, you know what I mean? Like, but what what we do know is people often rationalize on like a technicality. I could see him rationalizing on a technicality. I gave you the opportunity to know more you chose not to take it. But that's also like kind of a lie by omission as well. Right. Because you also didn't on the date be like, by the way, or when the date was over, reminder, my podcast is about dating. So don't be surprised when you see this data.

Michelle Massunken 24:17

And then even with that conversation, it's like if you're gonna use this content, there are certain like you have to use your discretion, right? Like if she's sharing sensitive information with you about her dad, or she's being vulnerable, like at that point, you're not really interested in pursuing anything further with this date. Like it really is strictly just for your podcast content because there's no way you would allow her to be that vulnerable and put it out there for the strangers to hear and expect her to want to date you.

Tina Wilston 24:46

Like in what world? Yeah. In what world? So you I agree. That is a huge red flag. The fact that, like, if we go back to um, is she girlfriend material, emotionally avoidant, and hot enough to overlook the red flags, and you want to be able to have that conversation publicly with a friend and then have her want to go out on a fourth date with you.

Michelle Massunken 25:06

There's a way.

Tina Wilston 25:07

Why would you think that's a thing?

Michelle Massunken 25:09

Like, that's a red flag that you're displaying, clearly.

Tina Wilston 25:12

That's bad judgment.

Michelle Massunken 25:13

Yeah. Yeah.

Tina Wilston 25:14

You should you should be very clear why she's upset. If you're confused on why she's upset, she's definitely dodged a bullet from that standpoint. Because unfortunately, that conversation I think happens a lot between friends.

Michelle Massunken 25:26

It just doesn't get publicized and you don't know that that's what they're talking about, and you don't have friends sharing it to you for you to hear what people are saying about you. Like it's not, it's not a public conversation, it's something that happens in private. But this is, I mean, yeah, it's tough for her because she was as open and vulnerable as she was.

Tina Wilston 25:44

Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 25:45

Yeah, that's kind of sad.

Tina Wilston 25:46

That's the thing I think that uh hopefully he takes from this is if you actually want to do this, you need to change the details such that like only provide details that nobody would be able to actually figure out who it is that you're talking about unless they know that my friend went on a date with you, and so I know it was her because I know you guys had a date. Exactly. But outside of that, I actually wouldn't have necessarily known that you were talking about her.

Michelle Massunken 26:12

Yeah. Just like with our work, right? Like, if I can identify who you're talking about without you even using their name, then you've shared too much. Yes. And so if the friend can easily just forward this podcast episode to her and be like, is this you? Like, place of work.

Tina Wilston 26:26

Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 26:26

The dad story, like there's way, like, switch it up a little bit.

Tina Wilston 26:30

Yeah. Although I'm curious to hear the podcast. Take a look at it. It's not for episode, but I actually think it could be an interesting podcast of like going out there and dating and then like coming back and talking about the dates. That's horrible. Especially with the people you don't know. I hear the same stories over and over again. I don't know if you work with a lot of people that are trying to like online date, but it's not no, yeah. It sounds awful. But we also know that those dating apps are not designed to like create long-term relationships. It's not one of those. It's so unfortunate. Yeah. I feel like the first dating app company where they change their mandate from profit to actually marriage, yeah. Or like long-term committed relationships. No, there isn't. Oh, but the first company that does, they should roll the market. Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 27:17

It'll be a different game at the end.

Tina Wilston 27:18

Everyone will go to them.

Michelle Massunken 27:21

That's just for crazy. Idea.

Tina Wilston 27:22

Anybody out there want to do it? Go ahead. You can. Yeah, the poor people of society today. So yeah, definitely not the a-hole and wow.

Michelle Massunken 27:30

That is crazy. All right. You're up next. Okay. So am I the a-hole for pretending I didn't know my boyfriend's work wife was

Work Wife Behaviour And Hidden Flirting

Michelle Massunken 27:44

flirting with him just to see how far they'd take it. My boyfriend has a co-worker who he constantly refers to as his work wife. I told him early on that I hated that term, but he said it was just a it was just an office joke and I needed to relax. At first, I tried to ignore it, but then I started noticing things. She'd text him late at night about non-work stuff. She'd comment heart under his Instagram post. She um brought him homemade lunches. She constantly made jokes about stealing him. Whenever I brought it up, my boyfriend acted like I was insecure. So eventually I stopped mentioning it entirely. A few weeks ago, his company hosted a work event and I attended as his guest. His coworker spent the entire night attached to him. At one point, she literally said, I spend more time with him than you do. I just smiled and said, probably true. After that, I decided to test something. I pretended I wasn't completely bothered. I stopped reacting, stopped asking questions, stopped checking, and honestly, they escalated fast. She started calling him pet names openly. He started hiding his phone screen more often. They had inside jokes constantly. Then last week, she accidentally sent a flirty text to their office group chat instead of to him directly. People started gossiping immediately. I confronted him privately and he admitted she might have feelings for him, but swore nothing physical happened. I finally told him I'd known for months and intentionally stayed quiet to see whether he'd he'd uh established boundaries on his own. Now he's furious. He says, I set him up to fail instead of communicating like adults. His friends are weirdly agreeing with him and saying that his relationship shouldn't involve tests. But in my mind, I did communicate repeatedly. He dismissed it until it became impossible to deny. Am I the A-Hole?

Tina Wilston 29:52

Interesting. Very first note.

Michelle Massunken 29:59

I can't remember.

Tina Wilston 30:01

I can't remember who said it, but one of them was like, Michelle's like your work wife. And I was like, Oh, having a wife is nice, by the way. I feel like, yeah. Okay. So, oh, this is a very, very interesting one because I think that what I have learned about infidelity is that we often get it presented to us as this random, like we k like we just like fall instantly in love, and then all of a sudden, like, and then we cross the line, right? When the reality of infidelity is actually this. The reality is it starts with, I see you for some reason on a regular basis for whatever that reason is, which can be work or a hobby or whatever. So we we have a reason to bump into each other on a regular basis. And then we have a reason to communicate about something. So let's go with a work one, just because this is about work. So we are on a project together, we're in a meeting together, and uh, I need to let you know that the this project move forward or whatever, right? And then in downtime, it turns into a more casual conversation. One of the biggest danger zones is if those casual conversations start turning into about like our happiness or unhappiness in our relationships. But even before that, it can be like, oh, we were talking about the show that we like and that kind of stuff. Right. And then because I already have your phone number because we needed to, I need to tell you about that work thing. Yeah. And we have this conversation about the show friends, and then I see a funny friends meme. Yeah. I'm dating myself here. I don't even see those. But anyway, and then I send that to you, like thought of you because we were talking about friends the other day. Like that's actually how infidelity happens because you're just crossing tiny lines that when it comes down to kissing for the first time, that starts to feel like just a small line that I'm crossing because I'd already crossed a bunch of lines before that. If I went straight from talking to you in a meeting and kissing you, that would have felt like a big leap. Right. But it's these slow boundary crossings that actually feed into infidelity. The problem with that is someone who's in denial about it because they're enjoying it, they they don't want to consider themselves a bad person. They think I'm not somebody who would ever do that. Like that messes with my sense of self when you tell me that this is boundary crossing. And because they are small, calling you my work wife, getting these text messages, I can still do that, engage in it, not consider myself a bad person. It is a massive danger zone. Denying it to your partner that it's a danger zone is very damaging to the partner as a bit of gaslighting. Yeah. Um, I've actually had to have conversation, very difficult conversations before in therapy where I'm like, I hear what you're saying, but when you say that to your partner, that is a form of gaslighting because you know underneath you do enjoy the attention and you feel flattered and you feel some feelings towards this person, maybe not enough to cheat now, but like but it's progressive, but they're concerned and telling them they have nothing to concern to be concerned about is actually not true. They there is something to be concerned about, and so I think the natural progression of you have nothing to worry about, you have nothing to worry about, you have nothing is is actually like gonna be to step back and stop vocalizing how I'm feeling because you're just gonna dismiss it, minimize it, rationalize it, and convince yourself that you're not doing anything wrong. So I I think her she may have made a very if she'd started right away with the the like trap, I would be a little bit that's a bit game like. Why aren't we having an open honest conversation? But she did try that and he didn't respond well to it. So I understand why she changed her tactic.

Michelle Massunken 33:56

Yeah. And it doesn't sound like he was ready to acknowledge it either. So that's tough when she's pointing out these boundary violation moments, but he's dismissing them as being nothing. Yeah. It's like, okay, cool. Like if you're not gonna acknowledge it for being what it is, and I kind of left with no choice but to set up this this trap or whatever, the test rather she calls it. But I think it's it's um Oh yeah, he called it a trap.

Tina Wilston 34:20

You're right. It was not a trap.

Michelle Massunken 34:21

Yeah.

Tina Wilston 34:22

That was a test. That's not a trap.

Michelle Massunken 34:23

Yeah, it's not. It's a test, but but that goes back to his insight into his actions or even the actions of this person at work, right? Like there is no, it's like there's no awareness of what's actually happening.

Tina Wilston 34:35

Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 34:35

Or there's just a lot of dismissal and denial of what's happening. But either way, it's not a problem. Exactly. It's not conducive to a healthy relationship if that's what you're hoping to cultivate.

Tina Wilston 34:45

Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 34:46

And so if you're not rec recognizing it as being what it is, then you're kind of leaving her with very little options. Yeah. And here we have the trap or the test, whatever you want to call it.

Tina Wilston 34:57

You know, what stuck out to me at the very end is what what looks to me like blame shifting.

Infidelity Slippery Slopes And Next Steps

Tina Wilston 35:04

So he starts with, yeah, maybe she has feelings for me, but you set a trap, you're the problem. Let's actually turn the conversation from my actions, which were not setting boundaries as I should have, recognizing she has feelings and not shutting it down immediately is problematic in a relationship. If you don't, it is your responsibility. If you're in a committed relationship and someone is coming onto you or you think somebody is interested in you, it is your obligation to shut that down very clearly and not entertain it as hard as that's gonna be. I get it, it's flattering, it feels nice, blah, blah, blah. But it's your job. You didn't do it, and now she's at fault.

Michelle Massunken 35:48

That's a problem. How do we how do we get to that? Yeah. Because you had an obligation, yeah. Right. And so she's essentially having to take matters into her own hands because you are not fulfilling your end of the obligation or your end of the bargain, nor is this person at work. Both of you guys are engaging in the violation repeatedly. And so she really has to step up and and do what she did.

Tina Wilston 36:10

Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 36:11

Otherwise, no one else is advocating and doing that. No. Should she stay with him? Um, I think there if there's room for growth in terms of him wanting to create more awareness, I don't know. I think there's work that has to be done.

Tina Wilston 36:28

Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 36:29

And is he willing to do the work? And if he's not, then she he's basically he's being open and on. It's like he's telling you who he is. There's no sugarcoating it or him, you know, trying to pretend like he's something that he's not. Like it's clear, it's quite open. And so do with that as you will.

Tina Wilston 36:44

Yeah. What is that when people tell you who who they are believing them?

Michelle Massunken 36:48

Yeah. Exactly that, right? Like he's making being very clear with it. And so it's really up to you now to take what he's shared and where he's what he's displaying in terms of who he is. And can you work with that? Can you guys improve from there? Or if this is how this is the best that's gonna be, is that okay for you?

Tina Wilston 37:06

Because this can easily turn into they get in a fight, he goes out, has an affair, and says, if you hadn't started that fight with me, I would have never cheated.

Michelle Massunken 37:15

Exactly. Do you know what I mean?

Tina Wilston 37:16

Like out of blame game. It's the same, it's the same sort of vein of thinking.

Michelle Massunken 37:20

Yeah.

Tina Wilston 37:20

So he needs to definitely strongly reflect on his response to this. Now, again, also sometimes you get these stories, but then the person has time to pull back, reflect, and go, oof, I didn't handle that well. I was feeling defensive in that moment. Because when we're defensive, we don't necessarily conscientiously blame shift. Yeah. Do you mean it's this very automatic, like my brain is doing it before I'm even fully thinking it through. Then I get reflection time.

Michelle Massunken 37:52

Right.

Tina Wilston 37:52

Now sometimes you see people double down in the reflection time because if it touches on their core sense of self, I am not a cheater. Like, think of if this guy grew up in a household where his mom or dad cheated, and he has this like really negative view of cheaters. He's like, I am not a cheater. You even suggesting I would do that hits me at my core. Then he really struggles to see the slippery slope that he was on and the inappropriate. We see this a lot in therapy. If people have, I'll go with like a really obvious one is maybe substance abuse. Yeah. They grew up in a household with a parent who abused substances. They didn't work, they were angry, they were passing out, they were throwing up. Let's go with. They could actually have their own substance abuse issue, but if they're not doing any of those things, yeah, they actually miss the signs of their own alcohol abuse. In their mind, it's not problematic. Right. Because like I still go to work, I'm functional. I've never yelled at you when I was drinking, right? All this stuff. So I could see that in this regard as well of like, I know dudes who are doing this, that, and I'm not doing any of that stuff.

Michelle Massunken 39:00

Therefore, this it's not as big of a problem as you're making it seem.

Tina Wilston 39:04

We're good. Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 39:05

Yeah. Again, that awareness is. And so if she's decided to stay in the relationship, like he needs to really do a lot of like insight work.

Tina Wilston 39:19

Yeah.

Michelle Massunken 39:19

Because he's not, he's not getting it. Yeah.

Tina Wilston 39:23

And she will have to learn to communicate differently again.

Final Takeaways

Tina Wilston 39:25

Like she can't keep up that tactic.

Michelle Massunken 39:26

True.

Tina Wilston 39:27

Yeah. If you have to keep up that tactic, it's not a good relationship for you to be in.